scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/5dst0b.md

## [D] Saturday Munchkinry Thread

* Author: u/AutoModerator *
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/5dst0b/d_saturday_munchkinry_thread/
* Score: 12

* Created: 2016-11-19T15:04:23

### Post:

Welcome to the Saturday Munchkinry and Problem Solving Thread! This thread is designed to be a place for us to abuse fictional powers and to solve fictional puzzles. Feel free to bounce ideas off each other and to let out your inner evil mastermind! 

Guidelines:

* Ideally any power to be munchkined should have *consistent* and *clearly defined* rules. It may be original or may be from an already realised story.
* The power to be munchkined can not be something "broken" like omniscience or absolute control over every living human.
* Reverse Munchkin scenarios: we find ways to beat someone or something  *powerful*.
* We solve problems posed by other users. Use all your intelligence and creativity, and expect other users to do the same.

Note: All top level comments must be problems to solve and/or powers to munchkin/reverse munchkin.

Good Luck and Have Fun!


### Comments:

> **u/alexanderwales** [+8]  *Time flies like an arrow* (2 hours later)
> 
> You have a bracelet that allows you to shape solid stone as though it were wet clay. All stone becomes malleable to you. It's not *actually* wet, nor does it lose its normal properties, so when you're in the process of shaping it someone else could come along, poke it, and feel stone. The bracelet only affects your body; you can't shape stone using tools like knives, scrapers, wires, etc.
> 
> (Unless it's really neat, I'd prefer answers that limit tech level to 1700s, since it's for a fantasy story I'm in the middle of writing.)

>> **u/ZeroNihilist** [+9]  (4 hours later)
>> 
>> As a material for tools, stone doesn't really have any advantages. It's heavy but not terribly strong, doesn't hold an edge well.
>> 
>> For that use, its only real benefits are that you can probably create your tool anywhere and quickly, and that you can remake them as needed (so it's more flexible). For long-term stuff, you'd probably prefer worked metal every time.
>> 
>> For non-tools, the main uses have been covered by others.
>> 
>> Would you be able to climb a stone wall by forming handholds and footholds? If it is effectively wet clay, it seems likely that it'd just slip and fall with your weight dangling on it.
>> 
>> You could sabotage stairs and the like by pulling a chunk off, then replacing it while not wearing the bracelet. Somebody may trip and die I guess.
>> 
>> Now that I think about it, probably the most effective use would be sealing doorways in stone buildings. Just fold a chunk in front of the door on the side it opens. If you do it enough, you'd effectively make a wall.
>> 
>> Oh, and anybody in a stone room could be sealed in, eventually suffocating in their airtight prison.

>>> **u/gabbalis** [+9]  (5 hours later)
>>> 
>>> >Would you be able to climb a stone wall by forming handholds and footholds? If it is effectively wet clay, it seems likely that it'd just slip and fall with your weight dangling on it.
>>> 
>>> You could wear fingerless gloves or something for climbing. Dig into the stone with the tips of your fingers, hold yourself there with the covered (and thus powerless) sides of your hands.

>> **u/NotACauldronAgent** [+5]  *Probably* (5 hours later)
>> 
>> What is "Stone" in this case? Here's what I got:
>> 
>> Mining Aid-1700s mining technology might be better, but this is more precise.
>> 
>> Castle Crusher-Shield yourself and once you get to a wall, it goes down quickly.
>> 
>> Since only stone is effected, ore refinery by scraping off stone with your fingernails is an option.
>> 
>> Gem carving, if gems are allowed, is probably a good trade. 
>> 
>> Statue Carving, for wealthy patrons.
>> 
>> If it gives feedback, soil sampling/ore quality control. Eg, if it moves easily, it's x%, if its harder, then it's y%
>> 
>> Asbestos is a rock.

>> **u/crivtox** [+4]  *Closed Time Loop Enthusiast* (4 hours later)
>> 
>> I think you  could easily hide things inside a stone wall   and easily retrieve them . If you are in a prision that has stone walls and still have the bracelet you can easily make tools from the walls to escape  or  make a hole in the wall .other idea would be molding stone around the hands and feet of someone to make improvised  cuffs. Or just make stone items and sell them. You could dig trough  stone and destroy stone walls .You could make  rock knuckles that would be hard  for your enemies but soft  to you.Also you will  always have whatever tools oyour weapons you want that can be made of stone even some that normally can't be made of stone

>> **u/traverseda** [+3]  *With dread but cautious optimism* (5 hours later)
>> 
>> >shaping it someone else could come along, poke it, and feel stone.
>> 
>> Hmm, the immediate thought is "soft" armour. Like the non-newtonian foam dow-corning makes, but better. What counts as stone? Anything approaching metal? Would be enough to provide some benefit against non-oathkeepers.
>> 
>> Shove some stone in a lock? Keep keys from working.
>> 
>> Entomb yourself? Decent for stealth against non-mentalists.
>> 
>> Stone tipped arrows? Less of a problem.
>> 
>> Volcanic glass opens up some possibilities, but not much.
>> 
>> Would make escaping constraints easier, as you can fashion simple stone tools. Presuming they don't take it off you.
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> All in all, it's not that powerful in this setting. The opportunity for a few tricks, but I don't know that there's anything  groundbreaking, except literally.

>> **u/MonstrousBird** [+3]  (a day later)
>> 
>> If my fingernails and my hair count as part of my body I have a way to engrave in stone and even cut through it if I grow some long enough strands of hair.
>> 
>> I could crush a bunch of smaller gems together to make one large one which would be worth more than the sum of the small ones
>> 
>> As a potter I could throw a super thin marble goblet, or even a gemstone one if that's allowed. 
>> 
>> I can make stone pipes and improve plumbing, though I'd have to use granite or something non-porous
>> 
>> A lot of this depends on how wet is wet clay. THe best pottery techniques use a range of wetnesses for different effects, like you need clay to be drier before you can attache a handle to a jug, but you attach it with nearly liquid clay. If it's wet enough you can make thin edges on clay which might be sharp on an appropriate stone. Moulding diamond would be awesome in this regard.
>> 
>> If you want more ideas I'd suggest looking at some pottery videos :-)

>> **u/Jiro_T** [+2]  (a day later)
>> 
>> If you push stone into a mold, does it count as you shaping the stone (permitted) or using a tool (not permitted)?

> **u/vallar57** [+4]  *Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic* (50 minutes later)
> 
> I have a challenge for you, fellow RF and WoD fans.
> 
> World of Darkness, be it the old or the new one, is a very well-written setting, describing several very different magical entities and their relationship within themselves and between each other. Mages, werewolfes, evem mummies and, of course, vampires - everything actually exists, if in a different form from the common myths, and every conspiracy theory you heard about is true. Yes, even that one.
> 
> However, different those entities are, they all share a common point: something the vampires call the Masquerade. That is, they are hidden from normal, low-magical people. And excuses for continuing to maintain the Masquerade are quite often pretty flimsy. And generally boil down to everyone wanting to maintain it, even those like Sabbat, who openly disdain it.
> 
> The challenge is simple: destroy the Masquerade. Use a party of no more than 2 characters who may be fairly powerful, but not very (something like basic character +15 exp, perhaps?), from any book as long as those can reasonably meet and team up and have an actual motivation to destroy the Masquerade. Be prepared that other magical creatures will not be amused. To make things fair and even possible at all, the Internet is not completely under control of supernatural, and even the New World Order or Virtual Adepts can't edit the whole Net on the fly.
> 
> What do you think? Also, should I make it a separate post or keep it here?

>> **u/MagicWeasel** [+2]  *Cheela Astronaut* (9 hours later)
>> 
>> The Masquerade is one of those things that you have to basically accept as suspension of disbelief, IMO. You just need to get your party on live TV, and say turn into a werewolf or whatever else would be convincing.
>> 
>> OK, I'll go with a werewolf party because werewolf transformation is easy to do and demonstrate. Apply for the James Randi prize (I don't think it exists anymore, but there are alternative ones - or contact Penn Jillette, Richard Dawkins., whoever is respected in the scientific/skeptical community), tell them you're werewolves, prove it under test conditions, and bam! the masquerade is broken. You'd explain the Masquerade and swear them to secrecy until a Big Reveal where all the people you've told announce it at once on their websites. 
>> 
>> Of course nWoD werewolf rules say that there's "lunacy" and people forget the werewolves/misremember them, but that requires a failed willpower roll, so we're just going to naively assume that you'd eventually get enough respected scientists/etc to succeed their willpower rolls that it'd work out.

>>> **u/vallar57** [+3]  *Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic* (15 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Going on live TV, and TV in general, imo, is an extremely bad idea. Whatever you can do there would be merely a stunt that is fairly easy to replicate with CG, and people are far more likely to believe in an unconventionar PR move than in real supernatural (and live TV is often not as live as it's presented). And in time you would need to convince people that it's not a stunt, you'll get all kinds of angry enforces, starting with the Technocracy and you won't see the rest)
>>> 
>>> Yeah, my plan also consist of talking to popular and respected scientists. What I am stumped about is how to ensure secrecy until reveal. Some of those scientists might be more than they seem)

>>>> **u/MagicWeasel** [+1]  *Cheela Astronaut* (15 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> It's tricky. You'd probably want to watch one (let's say Neil DeGrasse Tyson) for an extended period of time to observe whether they're a supernatural of some stripe (maybe take a mage with aura readings, actually - that tells if they're supernatural right away, right? Unless they are hiding their aura. Eek), and then have "hub" person send sealed letters to a bunch of other respected colleagues containing proof (not sure what would be considered sufficient proof, though).
>>>> 
>>>> Another thought - be a mage with a rote spell of controlling coin flips (that shouldn't cause too much paradox, right?). Then you can win a bunch of challenges at it might be a subdued enough power that nobody would notice you were a  mage until it's too late. Maybe? I'm not sure.
>>>> 
>>>> I think going to respected scientists is the best way.

>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Aren't there mad scientists in this world, too? I suspect that going the "respected-scientists-first" route will just lead to creating another bunch of Mad Scientists...

>>>>>> **u/vallar57** [+1]  *Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic* (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Genius: The Transgression is a fangame, and thus exempt from discussion) Classical WoD mad scientists are merely mages who use gadgets to ease Paradox pressure on them.

>>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hmmmm. What exactly is this Paradox you're talking about?

>>>>>>>> **u/vallar57** [+2]  *Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic* (a day later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This one: http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Paradox_(MTAs)

>>>>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Okay, so, as I understand it... Paradox is backlash for doing something that people *in general* will not believe. Even if they're not there to witness it at the time.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> So, let's say you have some convincing proof of magic. (The specifics don't matter to this argument). Whatever it is, it's good, it's convincing, and if you go on TV with it, maybe release the video on YouTube, then anyone who sees it will realise that magic exists.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This implies that whatever you're doing - even if it's just tossing heads a million times with a coin - whatever you're doing for proof is something that's so unbelievable, so "out there", that the best explanation for it is "magic is real". And now you're going out and putting that proof in front of every human being on the planet.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Wouldn't this *automatically* produce a Paradox backlash so strong that there's little left of you but a funny-coloured stain, and maybe a still-smoking skull?

>>>>>>>>>> **u/vallar57** [+2]  *Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic* (4 days later)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the late answer.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> You are absolutely right, however, Paradox only applies to Mages. Abilities of vampires, werewolves and some other magical creatures are fully within this "reality current", even if they are just as unbelievable as the power of an Awakened.

>>>>> **u/vallar57** [+1]  *Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic* (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yeah, an extensive check on one scientist and then working though him/her probably can work.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Controlling coin flips is a coincidental magick and shouldn't cause paradox at all, unless you do it so much that everyone around you starts actively disbelieving your luck.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Btw, googling "parqadox" and "wod" together got me a piece of very good news I wasn't aware of: [apparently](http://www.pcgamesn.com/vampire-the-masquerades-bloodlines/vampire-bloodlines-sequel-survey-paradox), Paradox is planning a new VtM game)

> **u/Kilbourne** [+4]  (11 hours later)
> 
> You are afflicted by reverse body dysmorphia; your body will always be in the condition/shape/etc. that you expect it to be in. However, you are initially unaware of this. Therefore, if you get shot, you suffer from what you *think* are the effects of a gunshot wound. This also means you cannot be anesthetized and murdered in your sleep or while unconscious, because you would not be aware of it and therefore it would not happen to your body.
> 
> Otherwise, normal human psyche and and body.

>> **u/Iconochasm** [+3]  (12 hours later)
>> 
>> Hypnosis or pathological affirmation exercises?  I'm invincible enough, I'm unstoppable enough, and gosh darnit, people find me undeniably attractive.  Not sure how to become aware of it, unless you needed some kind of surgery where the disconnect between your beliefs and surgical reality made a surgeon say something that gave you a clue.  But that would likely just lead to a distrust of doctors, instead of thinking your body was psychomorphic.

>>> **u/Kilbourne** [+3]  (14 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Possibly you could affirm it; your power comes down to a funny sort of self-determination in a way, and by a manner that one's mind has never practiced before. We spend a lot of time learning to accept reality, not to impose our will upon it.
>>> 
>>> Not sure you could become superhuman, or be perfectly (supernaturally) attractive, as you are bound by normal human biology. You could, however, be the most terrifying acid trip partner of all time.
>>> 
>>> Any obvious abuses you can think of?

>>>> **u/MonstrousBird** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Could you hurt me by showing me a fairground mirror unexpectedly?

>>>>> **u/Kilbourne** [+2]  (2 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hahaha oh man, perhaps if you did not also realize it was a fairground mirror - psychotropics would be more effective. That'd be crazy though. It would warp you, but I don't know if it would harm you.

>> **u/gabbalis** [+2]  (14 hours later)
>> 
>> When you say... normal human body... does that mean, normal 'normal' or, no stronger than an Olympic weightlifter on steroids 'normal'?

>>> **u/Kilbourne** [+1]  (14 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Hm, perhaps in that it can ignore injury based on the psyche's perception of injury, it may be that it has to follow the rules of biophysics - for example, breathing fire is possible, but you'd have to eat a bunch of ammonia beforehand.
>>> 
>>> So, you could lift and throw a car, but you'd do a wringer in your muscle fibers, unless you'd eaten a bunch of coal recently and really meditated on carbon nanoweaves.
>>> 
>>> So, to answer your question more specifically, I supposed the 'normal' would depend on what materials your body had to work with in order to fulfill your *pro*morphia. First day? Olympic sprinting and acrobatics, but unlikely to break records.

>> **u/Jiro_T** [+1]  (a day later)
>> 
>> "Expect" is a tricky term.  If you expect X, it will happen, and the knowledge of this will give you a reason to expect X.  And if you don't expect X, it won't happen, and the knowledge of this will give you a reason not to expect X.  So if you're a perfect logical reasoner, you should be able to make X happen by expecting it--you normally can't control what you expect since your expectations logically follow from facts about the universe, but in this unusual case, you can.
>> 
>> If you're not a perfect logical reasoner, your ability to expect things will probably be constrained by instinctive "expectations" such as thinking that when you get shot, you'll be hurt.  Exactly how well you do depends on how well you can make your expectations depend on reasoning and nothing else.
>> 
>> (Also, can you use this power to clone yourself by expecting yourself to undergo fission?)

>>> **u/Kilbourne** [+1]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> That makes sense. So, the promorphic person could rationalize themselves to have tentacle arms, and therefore would have them, etc.?
>>> 
>>> Seems like the limits of ability are based on the flexibility of the person's psyche in this case; what they can convince themselves to be possible/expected.
>>> 
>>> The fission thing... the brain would be the tricky portion of that, I think. Can a brain be 'split' on a cellular level while still retaining function? This is all done a body-horror morphic level, btw.

>> **u/CCC_037** [+1]  (a day later)
>> 
>> So... you can't be unexpectedly poisoned, and a placebo will always work on you, but you can be killed if an enemy merely *claims* to have put poison in your last meal in a believable way, even if he didn't?

>>> **u/Kilbourne** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> I suppose so, yes. Hopefully you have a skeptical mind, or else you're a con-man's dream.

>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+3]  (2 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> I think this can work really well with a two-man team. The Hero has this power, but doesn't know about it. His sidekick knows about it, is by far the more intelligent of the two, and knows how to *take advantage* of it... "Don't worry, sir, I slipped you the antidote two hours ago."

>>>>> **u/Kilbourne** [+2]  (2 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> That would be really funny, I think. It'd be like the kid from Unbreakable tricking his dad into lifting ungodly amounts of weight.

>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Humour would be a large part of it, yes. You've got one guy who's basically the Brawn, big and strong and pretty near invulnerable (definitely invulnerable to sneak attacks) and another half his size who spends the whole story frantically running around trying to save his 'mentor' from himself *and* deal with the Villain Of The Week on the side.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It might make quite a good parody of the superhero genre.

> **u/TennisMaster2** [+1]  (24 minutes later)
> 
> I want people to munchkin the wish rock from my story for this fortnight's challenge.  Use my characters, yours, or yourself.  Maximize for one of the following:
> 
> * Your own values.
> 
> * Discovering its origins and exploring the implications and complications thereof.
> 
> * Saving humanity from the projected heat death of the universe.
> 
> * Fixing the entropy problem.*
> 
> * A series of increasingly odd trivialities that are very very silly indeed.
> 
> * Making any counterfactual a reality.
> 
> * Making any fantasy a reality, be it for just yourself or everyone.
> 
> * Anything else.
> 
> *(Yes, I know.  It's intentional.)

>> **u/eaglejarl** [+2]  (12 hours later)
>> 
>> What story?

>>> **u/TennisMaster2** [+1]  (20 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Wishing Boys.

>> **u/Chronophilia** [+1]  *sci-fi ≠ futurology* (an hour later)
>> 
>> Unless there was some Dark Twist in the story that I missed, the wish rock is essentially omnipotent and reads the user's intentions telepathically and flawlessly. It can make any fantasy a reality - the really interesting question is *which* fantasy you would make real if you could.
>> 
>> Did I understand the story correctly?

>>> **u/TennisMaster2** [+1]  (an hour later)
>>> 
>>> Yes.  That's why I enumerated specific conditions: with limitless possibilities restraints help focus creativity.

>> **u/MrCogmor** [+1]  (2 days later)
>> 
>> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Roleplay/Glowfic
>> Effulgence does a decent job of munchkining a similar wishing power.
>> 
>> Edit: 
>> https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/petty-ways-youd-use-reality-warping-powers.20110/

>>> **u/TennisMaster2** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> Awesome!  Thanks.  Although the SV link requires an account.

> **u/Rhamni** [+1]  *Aspiring author* (a day later)
> 
> A small fraction of people, not including you, have the ability to perfectly predict potential futures up to five seconds ahead. That is, they 'know' all the sensory information they would receive if they stayed in place/looked around a corner/punched someone in the face/bared a secret/asked a particular question, etc, as long as the result is evident within five seconds. Other than putting a five second delay on every password check ever, how would you as a high up politician or military officer defend your faction from seers with bad intentions?

>> **u/Jiro_T** [+1]  (a day later)
>> 
>> YYou can't "have the ability to predict potential futures" in general unless you can solve the halting problem.

>>> **u/Rhamni** [+1]  *Aspiring author* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> The seer gets only the sensory input they might actually get within the next five seconds. They do not see what they might 'see' with their power ahead of time. Five seconds is a hard cap.

>>>> **u/Jiro_T** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> That's enough to cause problems.  You can do X in the next five seconds where X is something that depends on the result of the prediction itself.

>>>>> **u/Rhamni** [+1]  *Aspiring author* (2 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I seem to have been unclear. Right now, you can see what the world holds in response to your actions in the next five seconds *as if you during those five seconds no longer had the ability*. You can only See what muggle you would see.

>> **u/CCC_037** [+1]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Five seconds?
>> 
>> Put a Seer in front of a computer screen. Tell him, as soon as he sees the letter 'N' appear on the screen in the future, to hit the 'N' key.
>> 
>> The software will display an 'N' as soon as 'N' is pressed, or after one hour if 'N' is not pressed.
>> 
>> How quickly does the 'N' appear?

>>> **u/Rhamni** [+2]  *Aspiring author* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> The seer will immediately know that if they press n, n will appear. They do not see any particular future as 'meant to be', so they may interpret your order to mean 'as soon as pressing n works, press n', in which case they will press immediately. If they don't, they will press at 59:55 when they are certain that an n will appear whether they press or not.

>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Hmmm. So, consider their mindset at 59:50, then. At 59:50, whether or not they press 'n' immediately, 'n' appears on the screen at 59:55.

>>>>> **u/Rhamni** [+2]  *Aspiring author* (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> No. Their 'sight' shows them nothing about itself. At 59:50 they see that nothing happens unless they take action. At 59:55 they see that the n will appear regardless, and remember that they were instructed to press at this point. However, they could still choose not to press.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I suppose we could complicate the situation by hooking them up to an MRI that presses for them when it senses a spike in brain activity. But even then, the way the power works in my mind is that it doesn't work, because the future they see is what they would see if they took actions XYZ and had no ability to see further ahead. And if they could not see ahead, nothing interesting would happen at 59:55.

>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [](/twiponder) Huh. So, it's not recursive. Does this mean that a Seer cannot See what another Seer is going to do in the next five seconds?

>>>>>>> **u/Rhamni** [+2]  *Aspiring author* (a day later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> They can, sorta. I simplified and said five seconds, but really it's 1-5ish seconds depending on the Seer. A Seer who can see further ahead will have an advantage over one who can't see as far, but they can both identify each other immediately unless one is asleep/paralyzed/whatever. In theory one could pretend not to have the power, but they would have to precommit to things like not reacting ahead of time if someone tries to stab them out of the blue or call out their name.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When two seers try to outdo each other, you have two PCs in a world of NPCs. They see normal people as simple flow charts, but with another seer they are simulating *you* while you are simulating *them*, so things get a little more complicated. They still see a cloud of possibilities that they can pick and choose from, but... It's a bit like the end of Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows, where Holmes and Moriarty both see the outcome of the fight ahead of time (Except Moriarty would know what Holmes' backup plan was). You can pick the best course of action you could theoretically choose, but your opponent will choose the exact best counter. So they arrive at a Nash equilibrium immediately. Of course, that's still just a few seconds ahead. You can still lure a seer into a situation where, once they fall for it, no course of action could save them from the nasty trap that triggers ten seconds rom now.

>>>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+2]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So. Let's say there are two Seers. Call them Alice and Bob.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Alice has a water balloon, and wishes to throw it at Bob. No matter where she throws it, Bob can catch it without it bursting.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So. Alice sees a cloud of possibilities. Throw the balloon at Bob's head, at Bob's feet, at Bob's chest, don't throw the balloon, shout "Look behind you!", all of that and more. And Alice sees the results of these possibilities. Notably, she see *no* possibility where Bob is soaked.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Bob sees a cloud of possibilities. Move his hand *here*, catch the balloon - do anything else, get soaked. He sees *many* possibilities where he ends up soaked.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Would that be approximately accurate?

>>>>>>>>> **u/Rhamni** [+1]  *Aspiring author* (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Entirely. And an excellent way to explain it, too. I will have to remember it. Thanks!

>>>>>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+4]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hmmm. This opens the door to all sorts of shenanigans.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Let us say that Alice and Bob have a bit of time to make plans. Then Bob goes to infiltrate some company or villainous organisation or... something.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Bob finds some crucial but short information, which can be described in terms of a five-letter code. However, having discovered this Secret, Bob is permanently under watch. Bob, by pre-arrangement, passes Alice on a regular basis.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Bob has precommitted that if Alive says a number, he will state the relevant letter of the code. So, say the code is ABCDE. If Alice says "one", Bob will say "A". If Alice says "two", Bob will say "B". And so on.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Alice says nothing. Bob says nothing. The people watching Bob - even if some of them are Seers themselves - see no information passing from Bob to Alice. Yet, after that brief non-conversation, Alice knows what the code is.

>>>>>>>>>>> **u/Rhamni** [+3]  *Aspiring author* (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I love it. Especially as the original prompt was 'how do you *stop* these bastards from sabotaging/taking over your faction?' :p Though mapping out their capabilities is obviously a large part of that.

>>>>>>>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+4]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmmm. It goes further. When Alice looks at Bob, Alice doesn't see the course(s) of action that Bob will choose *not* to do. Alice sees what Bob *will* do (if Alice does X).
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, let's return to the computer program. Now we set up two computers, such that what Alice types appears on Bob's screen, and vice versa. We ask both Alice and Bob to press 'N' the moment that they see that an 'N' is *going* to appear. At time 60:00, an 'N' appears on Alice's screen (if it's not there yet).
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, at time 59:55, Alice hits 'N', and thus an 'N' appears on Bob's screen.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, at time 59:50, Bob hits 'N', and thus an 'N' appears on Alice's screen...

>>>>>>>>>>>>> **u/Rhamni** [+3]  *Aspiring author* (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hm. That's interesting. The way I want to rule it is that nothing indicates Alice will press at 59:55 until, at 59:55, she sees that it's time to press.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except, now we've made a special exception curtailing Bob's power, because he no longer gets five seconds' warning when something important happens. And of course, if he does get the warning he is going to press at 59:50, and it cascades all the way down to both pressing at 00:00.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm gonna have to plug this hole. Thanks for exposing it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose... the simplest fix might be to have the power fail to detect anything caused because of the same power in the future. That way seers can still be surprised by other seers when new information pops up, but we avoid information leak from far in the future.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+3]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [](/twiponder) Hmmm... but that's going to change the water-balloon situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Alice wants to throw a water balloon at Bob, and Bob wants to catch it without getting soaked - well, Bob no longer has the chance to see exactly how Alice will throw the balloon until Alice actually throws the balloon.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> **u/Rhamni** [+3]  *Aspiring author* (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, there's a difference. No new information is coming during the water fight. Alice decides where to aim, Bob sees how to catch the balloon, no outside interference. However, in the computer program case, at 59:54 Alice does not know she will press in only a second. The mundane world holds a future of Alice sitting still, waiting for the program. At 59:55, she is surprised by the sudden knowledge that the n will appear on its own in five seconds, so she changes what she was going to do. Pressing was not in the cards before then.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this a distinction that makes sense?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+3]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah. So, Bob can see what Alice will do over the next five seconds, under the assumption that Alice spends that time completely ignoring any new information from her Seer talent. Presumably, no matter what the mechanism for information to travel backwards in time is, it cannot reach more than five seconds into the future. That... works well enough for fiction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Incidentally, on the subject of things that can be affected by happenings five seconds into the future, are you familiar with Asimov's fictional compound Thiotimoline?)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> **u/Rhamni** [+3]  *Aspiring author* (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not, but I shall have to look it up. Only read the Foundation series of his.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+3]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a spoof scientific article about a compound that dissolves five seconds *before* you add the water - and runs heavily into the consequences of this behaviour (including that the time is variable, and depends on the experimenter - five point something seconds was the maximum). Thiotimoline in the brain could be responsible for the Seer's special abilities...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another idea strikes me. Let us say that Alice is watching a train go past. On that train is an accomplice, who holds a piece of paper flat against the window.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, the train is going at eighty kilometres an hour. Even forewarned, your average person will not see the paper for more than in instant. But Alice can see it in advance. So, she gets to spend five seconds studying what, from her perspective, and perhaps after some practice, appears to be a stationary piece of paper... not enough to read *much* of it, but a few words, or to get a sense of the picture...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> **u/Rhamni** [+3]  *Aspiring author* (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I decided long ago that I could not handle arbitrary learning speeds, so while the power lets a seer analyze an insane amount of information and act on it in the moment, they can't retain more in their memory than you or I could of things we see with our eyes. So they can learn a lot that would be costly for others to learn (say how somebody would react if you punched them), but they can't learn at a (much) faster *rate* than normal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of a paper held up to the window of a moving train, yes, it's fair to say she would get about five seconds' worth of scanning it. Might not be able to read small print, though, but that can be worked out with the accomplice in advance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read the wikipedia page for Thiotimoline and I like it. Thanks for that as well. If you were a background NPC scientist in a fantasy world's Nazi Hogwarts/Moria capital of magic, what would be a good name for you? I usually just steal usernames, but CC_037 does not exactly roll off the tongue.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+3]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used "Cecil Sea" under similar circumstances before.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These Seers are going to be dangerous with any weapon, and *particularly* dangerous with a crossbow or rifle; they can see *exactly* where to fire to hit their target. Apart from everything else, they're perfect snipers - except against each other.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmmm - but a seer with a cellphone app could snipe another seer. Consider; Alice keeps a rifle trained on Bob but doesn't fire. Bob doesn't react, because he doesn't See a bullet arrive. Alice continues not to fire until such time as she Sees - at the edge of her range - that her cellphone app is beeping, at which point she immediately fires. Bob gets shot *without* his usual warning, quite possibly leaving him too surprised to dodge...

>>> **u/xamueljones** [+1]  *My arch-enemy is entropy* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> That sounds like asking if the power is recursive. Can you see the future that a future you is seeing?

>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> More or less. I'm trying to figure out a way to get an effect more than five seconds before the cause. Preferably an hour or so.

---