scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/6msa91.md

## What comic books fit the genre?

* Author: u/Prezombie *
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/6msa91/what_comic_books_fit_the_genre/
* Score: 12

* Created: 2017-07-12T06:54:19

### Post:

I've always been a fan of Warren Ellis' comics. A lot of his works seem to be solidly rational, if really cynical. I recently discovered his current ongoing series, "Injection", which seems to be his newest work of Deconstructive Horror, this time surrounded around hard AI.

There's one massive idiot ball in the backstory (durr lets mix untested magic and AI then upload it to the internet, nothing could possibly go wrong), but otherwise the characters seem to be consistently intelligent in their decisions regarding the aftermath.

No Hero, Black Summer, and Supergod are Warren's Graphic Novels deconstructing Superheroes in various ways, and while the characters may not be entirely rational, the writing gives very rational results of their irrational choices. 

SAGA, Image comics' biggest title right now, is pretty close to rational. Its a neat coming-of-age story in a surreal universe full of dark whimsy. The only real roadblock to being truly a part of the genre is the fact that the world is so alien, it doesn't give the reader any predictive power to think ahead in the story. Rationalist stories are like overgrown paths you can see ahead of time if you're paying attention, SAGA is a rollercoaster while blindfolded.

### Comments:

> **u/sBucks24** [+8]  (9 hours later)
> 
> If you haven't already read it, and for some the hype behind it may jade them, but Watchmen is a great graphic novel for decontructing humanity. If you haven't read/seen then I won't spoil It, but the main antagonists plan about as rational as one can get

>> **u/trekie140** [+7]  (a day later)
>> 
>> I love Watchmen, but I'm not quite sure it's rational. The entire point of the story is that all of the characters are inherently irrational because of their psychological issues that don't really get resolved. The villain's plan also came across to me as a bit of a cliche by today's standards and the comic doesn't seem to recognize how short-term it's impact will be given the political situation. It's still a masterpiece that everyone should read, but I don't think a story about intrinsically flawed people failing to be heroes is appealing in the way rational fiction is meant to be.

>> **u/semiurge** [+4]  (a day later)
>> 
>> > the main antagonists plan about as rational as one can get
>> 
>> [It really isn't.](#s "Adrian is one of the smartest, richest, and most motivated people on the planet, and the plan for world peace he comes up with is to nuke New York with a mutilated psychic and tell everyone it's an alien. This strikes you as "about as rational as one can get?" Shortly after the squid goes off, people are already catching on to the fact that it was a mindless creature and not the vanguard of an alien invasion. The guy's straight up called Ozymandias (you know, like the poem about the guy whose empire crumbles to dust?) He's not rational, he's a commentary on very irrational Cold War politics, he's LBJ and Nixon, the guy who uses violence and lies in an autocratic and ultimately futile attempt at control.

>>> **u/sBucks24** [+3]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> k, so Im gonna spoil the ending now. The idea of killing thousands to save millions, in my mind is a pretty rational decision. The fact that the antagonist is a genius, and sees that this is the best solution for the impending WW3, is what makes the ending so good. And that it isn't futile, but that it actually works, and Manhattan understands that.
>>> 
>>> I understand your point, and obviously he's insane. But it's a very calculated insanity and rationally thought out.

>>>> **u/semiurge** [+7]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> But it isn't going to save millions, that's the point. It's not a basic trolley problem, it's a nutjob acting like a supervillain and thinking that this will solve real, complex problems. Ozymandias is delusional, and between him and Doctor Manhattan, superhumans have extended the Cold War and made the world of Watchmen a worse place. Also, I think you may have misread the ending. His plan doesn't work, people are catching onto his deception mere hours after he set it off, and Rorschach's journal with the whole plot recorded in it survives his death.
>>>> 
>>>> It's also not necessarily rational to kill thousands to save millions, or even to kill one to save a billion. The idea that utility/disutility can be aggregated within groups of people may seem intuitive, but that doesn't mean it's true. I'd recommend reading this paper: http://www.pitt.edu/~mthompso/readings/taurek.pdf by John Taurek for what I'm getting at.

>>>>> **u/overzealous_dentist** [+2]  (2 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> > His plan doesn't work, people are catching onto his deception mere hours after he set it off, and Rorschach's journal with the whole plot recorded in it survives his death.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's deliberately left unsaid whether the journal is published, though. It might indeed have saved millions.

>>>>>> **u/semiurge** [+3]  (2 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Whether the journal is published is irrelevant. As I also mentioned, the last chapter shows reports coming in that people are realizing that the squid was a mindless animal, and does not represent an alien invasion (you know, the threat that Ozymandias plans to unite the world against?).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And no, it will not save millions. You know how the Cold War ended in reality? If you guessed "not by fabricating a extraterrestrial threat by slaughtering millions of innocents", you are correct. Alan Moore wrote that part of Watchmen the way he did to mock the politics of Nixon, LBJ, Thatcher, etc., the Cold Warriors who thought you could end the war through nothing but violence and lying about the causes and effects of that violence. That Ozymandias (and the people he was created to mock) believes that what he's doing is for the greater good doesn't change that their logic is (at least in Alan Moore's belief) still that of a megalomaniacal supervillain straight out of the silver age of comics.

>>>>>>> **u/trekie140** [+2]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think there's more complexity to it than that based on the way the other main characters react to the event and decide to keep it all a secret, but I think your interpretation of the ending is brilliant.

> **u/GlueBoy** [+3]  *anti-skub* (a day later)
> 
> Invincible is fairly rational, or at least it introduces interesting questions. Particularly in the later arcs with Dinosaurus and then Rex. It's very interesting seeing a superhero struggle with utilitarianism. As an example, there's a story arc where Dinosaurus stops the MC from singlehandedly fixing destroyed cities after a massive catastrophe because he would be damaging the medium and long-term recovery of the economy. 
> 
> Private Eye by Brian K. Vaughan(anything by this guy, actually). In the future, after every single piece of information on the internet was released to the public and you could find out anyone's dirtiest secret with just a websearch, privacy becomes sacrosanct. Enter our MC, an unlicensed private detective.

>> **u/Prezombie** [+2]  (2 days later)
>> 
>> I read a lot of Invincibile, but I never really thought of it as rational. Mainly because all the powered characters were more interested in beating each other up than really changing the world for the better.
>> 
>> Private eye sounds a lot like the watch_dogs setting, I'll check it out.

> **u/Sailor_Vulcan** [+5]  *Champion of Justice and Reason* (14 hours later)
> 
> The only rational comic book I know of is Strong Female Protagonist. It's really good though.
> 
> strongfemaleprotagonist.com

>> **u/IgneusJotunn** [+6]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Not entirely sure that counts. Project Valkyrie seems to be chasing warm fuzzies over pure utilities, and nobody has mentioned having superheroes with super strength power turbines or do heavy construction. Of all the characters, Feral is the only one who has figured out how to make her power scale usefully.
>> 
>> SFP is good, don't get me wrong, but the main character in particular doesn't strike me as very rational.

>>> **u/Teal_Thanatos** [+5]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> definitely agreed. the main character is pretty irrational all things considered.

>>> **u/everything-narrative** [+1]  *Coral, Abide with Rubicon!* (4 days later)
>>> 
>>> It's rational, in that it has a sensible universe and characters good at solving problems modulo their personal psychological issues.

> **u/DaystarEld** [+1]  *Pokémon Professor* (2 days later)
> 
> [Irredeemable](http://amzn.to/2ughKhO) is quite good. It's basically about what would happen if Superman's spirit broke and he decided to just kill everyone, with a unique cast of non-DC heroes and villains.  One of the main superheroes is fairly rationalist, and the comic deconstructs and explores some of the more nonsensical aspects of the Superman archetype, along with providing its own in-universe explanation for it.

> **u/vallar57** [+1]  *Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic* (2 days later)
> 
> If you include mangas in the "comic" category, then I recommend reading **Maoyuu Maou Yuusha: 'Kono Ware no Mono to Nare, Yuusha yo' 'Kotowaru!'**, **Ookami to Koushinryou** and **Log Horizon**. All three are originally novels though, but their manga adaptations are very good.

> **u/trekie140** [+1]  (2 days later)
> 
> I think Injustice: Gods Among Us comes pretty close to rational fiction. Superman and his supporters definitely are not rational, or true to their canon counterparts, but that's intentional so we have another reason to root against them. Aside from the villains, all the other characters are genuinely intelligent and use the resources available to them in fairly clever ways. It helps that the writing, plot, and character development are good too.
> 
> If you haven't checked out Superman: Red Son, I think it's rational aside from the forced appearances by characters outside of Superman's mythos. Superman is still a good person even when raised as a communist, but reacts to the systemic injustice by using his powers to fullest extent that he can only for that to believably backfire. It's a really interesting character study.

> **u/sebastmarsh** [+1]  (5 days later)
> 
> "Lone Wolf and Cub" was period accurate Tokugawa Japan with some excellent points on history, philosophy, decisionmaking, motives, training, etc --
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub
> 
> The first book is the worst; give it 2-3 books if you start it to see if you like it.

---