scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/7lep1h.md

## [RT][WIP] Worth the Candle, ch 66 (The Long Night)

* Author: u/Rygatts *
* URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/29960013
* Score: 105

* Created: 2017-12-22T03:15:43

### Post:

[Link to content](https://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/29960013)

### Comments:

> **u/Decht** [+22]  (17 hours later)
> 
> If I understand this chapter, they brought a probably-hostile soul mage who can change people's values via touch to a town where popularity gives you super powers, and gave him freedom of movement. Did Fallatehr just win?

>> **u/xamueljones** [+9]  *My arch-enemy is entropy* (a day later)
>> 
>> No I believe the popularity town was supposed to illustrate how players tend to disrupt/ruin any place they arrive at and that Joon's group will most likely end up causing chaos and destruction. Also something about revealing mechanics vs keeping a mystery but applied to Loyalty 20.

>> **u/GaBeRockKing** [+8]  *Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857* (a day later)
>> 
>> Seeing as Fallatehr couldn't have done better if he had planned the whole thing himself, either he did plan the whole thing himself (in which case he won sometime in the last two chapters), or there's more to this town than Joon's roleplay sessions indicated.

> **u/JusticeBeak** [+17]  (4 hours later)
> 
> The symbiosis mechanic is really cool, I can't wait to see how it changes things. I wonder how Joon's perspective will change once he has access to Amaryllis' social skills.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+10]  *Mouse Army* (6 hours later)
>> 
>> I dont see Mary/Joon getting 20loyality anytime soon. Fens main skill - ranged - is item dependent, so not super useful to joon.

>>> **u/LeifCarrotson** [+16]  (15 hours later)
>>> 
>>> But conversely, Joon's main skill - rapid onset of basic competence in skills that take natives years to acquire - has huge benefits for Fenn to have even a little bit of it.  
>>> 
>>> If he's at Level 2 in anything, she can skip years of apprenticeship....heal (if inefficiently) with bone magic, light a dark room with blood magic, see into her own soul (and his) when he gets enough skill in soul magic, etc. etc. etc.
>>> 
>>> It's one thing to say they're soul bonded and she won't lag behind, another that she gets competence in each individual skill entry.  That will be extremely useful to Mary.  Also, half of Fenn's ranged skill is still pretty ridiculous for Joon...I wonder if she'll be able to spread those skill points across her character sheet when she gets a bit more soul magic?

>>> **u/thebluegecko** [+13]  (12 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Seems like Mary is pretty interested in power. Getting half of Joon's skills might motivate some additional loyalty.

>>>> **u/nytelios** [+7]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Which brings up the thorny and awkward problem if whether loyalty actually measures true loyalty in a spectrum or whether any loyal feelings automatically bump up the arbitrary Loyalty number by x. It can even be loyalty to Joon as an asset, rather than to his person. How reliable is the number for Valencia (who can be possessed - it would be funny if the possessing devil were forced to adopt and operate under Val's loyalty numbers) or for Amaryllis (who once raised it several times with a few seconds of internal rationalization)?

>>>>> **u/derefr** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> > Amaryllis (who once raised it several times with a few seconds of internal rationalization)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think that makes more sense if you consider Loyalty a representation not of a linear scalar magnitude, but rather of something like negative-log Bayesian uncertainty in goal-planning where reliance on predictive modelling of the trustee is concerned.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If that's the right model, you could raise loyalty very quickly by simply deciding to not let a few of your doubts about a person affect your judgement where goal-planning is concerned (i.e. decide on actions *as if* the trustee were perfectly reliable and honest.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's not really about dispelling doubts; it's just about suppressing their effects on your behavior. Mary's really good at that.

> **u/None** [+15]  (2 hours later)
> 
> The soul mage is a "deviant" elf? Assuming that's not all just affected behavior to trick people, this is solid intel. If Juniper can research what "normal" elves are like then he can hopefully get a better picture of what what kind of person the soul mage is, which could help a lot in figuring out how to handle him.
> 
> Also, and this is probably just paranoia, it seems really convenient that the member of the party who's getting the quarantine treatment is the only one that Juniper is unable to vet via soul link. Plus, because Grak is getting treated like a leper the odds are negligible that he'll reach loyalty 10 before the current crisis is dealt with. Then again the soul mage couldn't have known who they were going to leave behind at the prison via teleporter, so this is probably just a coincidence.

>> **u/Makin-** [+13]  *homestuck ratfic, you can do it* (6 hours later)
>> 
>> Someone had a theory last time that the elf wasn't Fallatehr and instead he was one of the other prisoners, might explain the lisp at the very least. It's not like he has shown any soul magic powers himself.

>>> **u/GeeJo** [+16]  *Custom Flair* (19 hours later)
>>> 
>>> > It's not like he has shown any soul magic powers himself.
>>> 
>>> He activated the transformation of his minions into the pelehr.

>>> **u/None** [+5]  (8 hours later)
>>> 
>>> [deleted]

>>>> **u/GeeJo** [+15]  *Custom Flair* (10 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> He could, for example, have stored his soul in the nonanima. It's purpose-built for possession, after all. They would have then broken him out at the same time as Fake!Fallatehr and triggered the quest completion. 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't actually think that's what happened. Fallatehr is Fallatehr.  
>>>> But I think it might happen in the future. Once Joon trusts the thing due to its high 'loyalty', it presents an easy method for the soul mage to approach him as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

>>>>> **u/wassname** [+4]  *The Culture* (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> In that case the null pointer exception is because Fallatehr is using "hide soul" or some skill (hide your name from the world even from gazes on your soul").
>>>>> 
>>>>> But this theory must explain how fake!Fallatehr activated the pelehr. So the prediction is that then soul magic has some range in some capacity, or he taught it to some of his minions. Or it was done earlier when they were carrying the nonanima.

>>>>>> **u/Keshire** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's also likely that Fallatehr wasn't the only soul mage to get sent to that prison. He was just the strongest. And we don't know if skill is erased when you go tweaking a person's core values.

>>>>>> **u/icesharkk** [+1]  (13 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> the change to the minions only occured when joon healed them. Fallatehr in any body could have adjusted their souls hours in advance I think.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I just went back and confirmed this in chapter 62. !Fallatehr touches them on the forehead and the recoil a bit but that could all be an act in line with his already demonstrated flair for deception.  I still believe that Valencia is Fallatehr either by possesion or not (no proof that she is actually a nonanima).

>>>>> **u/Tetrikitty** [+1]  (3 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Plot twist: Fallatehr's soul ends up stuck in the nonanima and he joins as a companion.

> **u/the_terran** [+21]  (6 hours later)
> 
> Just caught up with this chapter. Oh god, the withdrawal...
> 
> Also I can't believe this started nary 6 months ago. I felt like I read years and years worth of material. Amazing work on an amazing update schedule!

>> **u/roystgnr** [+22]  (11 hours later)
>> 
>> Me, reading through the archives and the corresponding Reddit comments:  "Ha!  That analogy between story update addiction and Level-Up addiction is a funny joke!  Good thing I didn't notice this story until there was already a huge backlog written!  I suppose I should probably pace myself just to be safe; I can stop reading any time I want to..."
>> 
>> Me, later that night: "What do you *mean* I've run out!?!  I just need one more fix, come on!"

>>> **u/SeekingImmortality** [+2]  *The Eldest, Apparently* (18 hours later)
>>> 
>>> ^ This.   Good fiction is an addictive drug.

>> **u/havoc_mayhem** [+1]  (18 days later)
>> 
>> > Amazing work on an amazing update schedule!
>> 
>> You had to go and jinx it...

>>> **u/the_terran** [+2]  (18 days later)
>>> 
>>> Tell me about it. I've been feeling guilty last two weeks...

> **u/None** [+8]  (10 hours later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/ArisKatsaris** [+2]  *Sidebar Contender* (11 hours later)
>> 
>> We don't yet know if loyalty grows beyond 20, you're rushing.
>> 
>> And I think you're also somewhat understating the level of connection that level 10 & level 20 both implied. I think I'd be somewhat surprised if e.g. Amaryllis ever manages to reach level 20 for Joon.

>>> **u/None** [+1]  (12 hours later)
>>> 
>>> It's a very reasonable assumption to make, for a multitude of reasons, that we are not close to the loyalty cap yet.

>>>> **u/nytelios** [+3]  (12 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Scary thought: with how loyalty is progressing, Joon will have his own soul copies! Or a melting pot and hivemind of soulmates.

> **u/AHaskins** [+13]  (18 hours later)
> 
> Alright, I get that the outburst from Valencia changed nothing - but was anyone else seriously unnerved by it all the same?

>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+9]  (21 hours later)
>> 
>> > Alright, I get that the outburst from Valencia changed nothing - but was anyone else seriously unnerved by it all the same? 
>> 
>> Here's a thought: Why bother to do it if it changed nothing? Like, *maybe* generic "sowing discord", but we're already not trusting Grak. 
>> 
>> In fact, let's assume it *is* true: what does that change? We'd know that Falletehr is untrustworthy and preferably needs to die.
>> 
>> Actually, perhaps what it *does* change is that if there were some way of accessing Val's memories (for instance, perhaps giving her a soul and then using soul magic to look at the memories), then Grak's status could be verified and if compromised, then they could decide to kill Falletehr already.

>>> **u/AHaskins** [+5]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> I will say that the one thing we can learn for sure from the incident comes from Fenn and Mary. They didn't notably react or care at all. Given how rare anima allegedly are, that's... surprising. Possibly worrying? Seems like their anima perception is ingrained, and potentially something that potentially came from plays or media - Fenn's not much of a reader. That would make it possibly inaccurate (and Valencia is in no place to correct them).
>>> 
>>> Asking Fenn or Mary about anima in general seems like a good idea.
>>> 
>>> I also don't like Falletehr's reaction. It was a bit too smooth. I vote that she's telling the truth.

>>>> **u/wassname** [+3]  *The Culture* (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> They should just teleport her to an area with a thick barrier between worlds, or use wards. Bam, more reliable witness (since loyalty probably means she is more likely to tell the truth). Also possible source of intel on Falletehr.
>>>> 
>>>> They could also possess her with a soul/demon that they know wont lie, perhaps one from thier flask of dead. Then use that to get at all the memories.
>>>> 
>>>> It seems like they want to treat her like a leper and ignore here even if she is trying to tell them something. Cultural blind spot? One that Falletehr may share? But perhaps not if he saw some experimental value in her at least and he doesn't follow cultural taboos.

>>>> **u/nytelios** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> His reaction to nearly everything has been smooth. Taking what's happened so far into consideration, I'd put low odds on Val's outburst being genuine. 
>>>> 
>>>> Why did she wait until she was going to be taken away to reveal the "truth"? Because she didn't want to join Falletehr again or was afraid he'd do something to her without the gang seeing? It would've been far easier to voice her concerns when they were speaking in confidence.
>>>> 
>>>> The paranoid part of me sees her saying “You have to believe me, Juniper, please!” as especially suspicious. She's actively appealing to emotion, whereas she was withdrawn and meek when her Loyalty was rising. Something like "Juniper, please don't send me with Falletehr because x,y,z" would be much more effective, assuming she still thinks like a person and isn't mentally stunted (or possessed by a more devious devil).

>>>>> **u/AHaskins** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> That's a good point. An appeal to emotion after moving away from the "safe zone"? That's definitely evidence for possession.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Counterpoint, though - there's weak evidence from the point of view of a potential loyalty shift. We haven't seen sudden loyalty shifts cause dramatic changes in behavior before, but we've also not seen such a meteoric rise in loyalty either.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm still on the side of Valencia telling the truth. That's more due to a lack of trust of Falletehr than it is trust in Val at this point, but I'll toss my flag in the ground here. I'll also say that it's possible that that was a demon telling the truth in order to create discord.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+2]  *Mouse Army* (19 hours later)
>> 
>> >Fuck, shes AHaskins bait!
>> - Fenn

> **u/Izeinwinter** [+4]  (20 hours later)
> 
> Valencias outburst is kind of terrifying, because it implies at least one version of her is indeed possessed. ..
> 
> "Juniper does not share our cultural values".. meaning the established horror of non-anima?  See my point re: "Well, that is terrifying". 
> 
> Interesting about the elves - so they trained Fenn as well as they could because the idea of half-assing anything is anathema to their entire culture. 
> 
> Fenn! And her teasing of Amaryllis.

> **u/Rygatts** [+1]  (40 seconds later)
> 
> typo for u/cthulhuraejepsen

>> **u/Rygatts** [+6]  (32 minutes later)
>> 
>> > There were cars and trucks moving through the city though, visible by their headlights and taillights 
>> 
>> The though sound weird in that sentence but it might just be me.
>> 
>> > The bed was too high for Grak to comfortably get up it
>> 
>> Get up on it?
>> > She kiss me on the neck
>> 
>> Kissed
>> >he was uneducated by knew a lot
>> 
>> But
>> > Riemer
>> 
>> Reimer
>> 
>> > Fenn had taken left out a change of underclothes for her
>> 
>> Remove taken or left?
>> 
>> > “You’re up early. Though you needed sleep.”
>> 
>> Thought?
>> 
>> > We need to chart of path forward of our own accord.”
>> 
>> Chart a path

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (36 minutes later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed all those, thank you.

>> **u/abcd_z** [+4]  (27 minutes later)
>> 
>> “**You’re** make Mary do it,” should probably be "**you'd** make".

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+2]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (31 minutes later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks!

>> **u/roystgnr** [+3]  (11 hours later)
>> 
>> "disorientating" isn't wrong, but it's British English, which seems out of place for Joon; I'd have expected him to choose "disorienting"

>>> **u/adgnatum** [+1]  (20 hours later)
>>> 
>>> It's been leaking.

>> **u/thrawnca** [+2]  *Carbon-based biped* (an hour later)
>> 
>> Fallather/Fallatehr

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (an hour later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks!

>> **u/GeeJo** [+2]  *Custom Flair* (9 hours later)
>> 
>> >Amarylllis

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