scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/7phthu.md

## [RT][WIP] Worth the Candle, ch 67-69 (Hand/Red/lol, 69)

* Author: u/cthulhuraejepsen  *Fruit flies like a banana**
* URL: http://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/30523317
* Score: 162

* Created: 2018-01-10T19:04:09

### Post:

[Link to content](http://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/30523317)

### Comments:

> **u/None** [+34]  (an hour later)
> 
> I really liked chapter 68 - it's always fun seeing new powersets get revealed and slowly fleshed out. Chapter 67 was nice because progress was made and Jun fencing with the soul mage is always gripping, and 69 was cool because it sets the stage for what appears to be a fairly unique story arc, but 68 was what did it for me. 
> 
> I liked it because Valencia's situation seems to be evidence for the theory that Aerb's DM/OS/whatever allocates resources to individuals (be they "real" or NPCs) in accordance with their skill levels. Mary presumably spent a long time training her people skills, which would in real life manifest as skill at cold reading at peak levels but in the simulation just means she has high SOC scores and thus gets more processing power allocated to her "mind reading" subroutine. Fenn could shoot literally supernaturally well after her Archery skill got boosted - more evidence that skills aren't governed by the mind/body (and thus inherently capped) but by some inscrutable simulation mechanism.
> 
> And IMO if this theory holds water then Valencia is kind of OP. Going off what Mary said (killing skills of a thousand year old demon - - > unarmed skill of 200?) and how Valencia behaved (arbitrarily high INS score? to the point of being able to read past Jun lying to himself about his intentions to kill the soul mage and actually get a read on his subconscious/driving motivations?) she seems to be able to tap the skills of the demons that possess her. She's able to read people to a frankly ridiculous degree that may actually be a telepathy analogue (at least when it come to intentions, not so much raw info) provided by the game layer. She's able to lie extremely well - she didn't just control her reaction, she came up with a very plausible/unfalsifiable lie in the form of color blindness in like three seconds flat. We've only seen demons express social agitator skills thus far, but if their combat skills are polished to the same inhuman degree then Valencia could end up being really dangerous.
> 
> And I mean that in more than just the fighting sense. It was all but confirmed that the demon didn't get "chased off by second guessing", but rather played dead and facilitated Jun forming a connection/establishing twin souls. And Valencia confirmed afterwards that she knew Jun was shooting for a specific goal (twin souls) as a way to help her. So why did the demon allow this to happen? Was it unable to anticipate Jun's unique powers no selling the possession mechanism? Or - as we were reminded of by Jun's "is your skill unique" lie in 67 - was it entirely aware of the workings of Jun's power, since it was an old enough entity to remember Arthur running around doing the same stuff? 
> 
> Exciting happenings! Jun's comment to the demon re "if I know you're untrustworthy I'll just not trust you" seems like a solid plan at first glance, but it brought to mind the "AI in a box" experiment. While I may not agree with all the conclusions drawn from the experiment, I do agree with the fundamental teaching that an intelligent enough entity has better odds at getting you to rub the lamp than you'd otherwise expect.
> 
> Let's hope Jun didn't just release a superintelligent AI equivalent into the world whose entire value system revolves around "loyalty to Jun". That's a bit too nebulous a concept to be trusted to restrain its behavior, IMO.

>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+22]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> > And Valencia confirmed afterwards that she knew Jun was shooting for a specific goal (twin souls) as a way to help her. So why did the demon allow this to happen? Was it unable to anticipate Jun's unique powers no selling the possession mechanism?
>> 
>> Valencia knew that Jun was shooting for some goal, but she didn't know *what*. 
>> 
>> The demon was helping build up a relationship because a possessed loved one can hurt you *far* more than a possessed stranger ever could. 
>> 
>> The chances of the demon personally experiencing an analogous power from Arthur are basically nil without narrativium. More specifically, the following things would have needed to happen:
>> 
>> * Arthur had the same powers as Jun.
>> * Arthur *indicated* some sort of specific  demon/soul-related powers in front of *that specific demon*.
>> * The demon would need to know enough about Jun to recognise that Jun is Arthur v2.
>> 
>> So, given that there are presumably thousands of demons, and there's no guarantee that Arthur even *interacted* with more than a handful of demons, and if he did, he would probably use some sort of weapon-to-the-face attack instead (like that warhammer), I don't think it's likely.
>> 
>> Of course, if demons gossip, then perhaps the demon would have heard of any Arthur-news through *that*, but again: there's no guarantee that Arthur actually did any demon soul-trapping anyway. 
>> 
>> All in all, it's *possible*, but not highly likely, and it's basically irrelevant.

>>> **u/None** [+8]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> You make a good point that the simplest answer - demon building a relationship just because that's a good SOP - is probably more likely than it shooting undermine the party/loyalty system.

>>> **u/russxbox** [+2]  (19 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I agree with your first requirement, we haven't seen one way or the other if Arthur had the exact same power as Joon. However, as to the second condition, I feel like it was stated somewhere in the story that the demons share information, but I'm not 100% sure. And for the third, the demons are scary competent. Minor tells like your vessel suddenly powering up several orders of magnitude along with the information sharing that I, again, am only pretty sure occurs means that if any demon had heard about Arthur's power (assuming it *is* the same), even from one of his companions or someone else in the know, they would notice the similarities. I think the bar is much lower for the demon to have specific knowledge of PC abilities and recognize them when experiencing them, especially if Arthur and Joon are not the only two Protagonists that have ever been put in Aerb (nothing says they are, but nothing says they aren't, either).

>> **u/ArisKatsaris** [+11]  *Sidebar Contender* (21 hours later)
>> 
>> Just a note -- there's an in-story distinction between "demons" and "devils", seen more obviously in chapter 65, which seems to imply that devils can lie, but demons cannot -- or perhaps it's more specific than that and demons just cannot lie about whether they're possessing someone or not:
>> 
>> > “I’m not possessed right now,” said Valencia.  
>> “The only information that statement conveys is that you’re not a demon,” said Amaryllis. “Congratulations on that.”
>> 
>> .
>> 
>> > “On to the interrogation,” said Amaryllis with a short yawn. “Joon, you realize that if she’s possessed by a devil, that devil will give us the exact wrong answers?”

>>> **u/adgnatum** [+1]  (7 days later)
>>> 
>>> An edit strongly suggests that the distinction exists:
>>> 
>>> >> Until recently she was subject to repeated possession by demons and devils at random intervals,

> **u/Noumero** [+26]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (4 hours later)
> 
> Hm. Why isn't Aerb controlled by devils yet? If the devil Valencia inverse-puppetered here is representative of the general devil population, they're perfect actors and borderline-superhuman social experts, potentially also (going by Amaryllis' warning) brilliant warriors. Thousands of years of history and even brief periods of access to nonanimas should have allowed them to gradually take control of everything. Why didn't they? Possibilities:
> 
> * They are, in fact, bad at cooperation and/or long-term plans.
> 
> * Their influence is somehow limited, or counter-balanced by another power (read: group of (super)intelligent agents).
> 
> * They were much, much weaker for the majority of history.
> 
> * They don't want to.
> 
> * They do control everything, but secretly.
> 
> Additionally, did Valencia just make all other members of Juniper's group obsolete? Save Grak, maybe, given her inability to perform magic. She demonstrated cold-reading ability better than Amaryllis ever did, I think, is a better liar than Fenn, is likely a better warrior, and going by her comment about "making herself better"...
> 
> Infernal Capture must come with some major downsides to be balanced. Again, possibilities:
> 
> * Devils could still leave at any point, or there's some kind of time limit on possession: it's unreliable.
> 
> * Devils could choose which nonanima to possess, and simply stop possessing Valencia from this point onwards.
> 
> * This devil is an especially powerful one; regular ones are much weaker/dumber.
> 
> * Devils are heavily specialized.
> 
> * This is a ruse and Valencia isn't really in control.
> 
> Also, why didn't Juniper read the description of Infernal Capture? He was able to do it just fine with Symbiosis and Twinned Souls previously. That seems to be a major mistake, was he manipulated into it by Valencia, the devil, or Fallatehr? Or did I miss something?
> 
> Also, not mentioning to Amaryllis that Grak is likely to be truly compromised before leaving her with him for two hours seems to be another major mistake. Hmm.

>> **u/None** [+20]  (4 hours later)
>> 
>> [deleted]

>>> **u/Noumero** [+19]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (4 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I would expect Juniper to explicitly take note of that, then. It's highly irregular. I suppose it's possible that that's the case, since the nonanima's condition is irregular to begin with, but still...
>>> 
>>> u/cthulhuraejepsen, is Juniper not checking Infernal Capture for description a mistake on your part? (I'll default to "no".)

>>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+18]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> You know, I thought that was in the chapter. I think it might have been eaten during the course of editing. I'll add it back in once I'm done with typos (so, probably later tonight).
>>>> 
>>>> Edited: Updated. I think maybe I moved its position and deleted that when editing. Ctrl+F "companion passive" should find it.

>>>>> **u/sharikak54** [+11]  (14 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Companion passive doesn't have its name (Infernal Capture) in or near its description.  That section has different formatting than the companion description directly above it, which looks odd.  Nonanima has a dash in the companion passive: non-anima.

>>>>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+9]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (23 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is because I was trying to match them to previous instances of companion passives, and looking back I should probably just have changed the formatting on the other instance of it rather than have them mis-matched here. Will get to this later tonight.

>>>> **u/wassname** [+3]  *The Culture* (6 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> He might be waiting to be out of the room so she can't read his reaction

>>>>> **u/sparr** [+2]  (2 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> If so, it's a break from the narrative style to not tell us that.

>>> **u/Zephyr1011** [+7]  *Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> > Companion Passive: Valencia is a loyal companion, now properly part of your kharass, though she is still without a soul. The non-anima is grasping, reaching, an unnatural construct trying to find its way in the world. Power has, for the first time in her life, found its way into her hands.
>>> 
>>> It was since added!

>> **u/xachariah** [+16]  (13 hours later)
>> 
>> >They do control everything, but secretly.
>> 
>> Err, they do control everything overtly.  Literally and metaphysically.
>> 
>> Demons happen to cause some suffering on the mortal plain right now for fun, but they don't need to.  Everyone that lives will eventually belong to them, which means they get to cause infinite suffering later.  
>> 
>> To an immortal creature, the couple hundred or so years where people invented a way to annihilate their souls when they die is just a temporary anomaly (and vat grown souls might even make up for that).  
>> 
>> From the demons' point of view, they're the absolute masters of Aerb at a fundamental level.

>>> **u/Noumero** [+6]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (17 hours later)
>>> 
>>> > To an immortal creature, the couple hundred or so years where people invented a way to annihilate their souls when they die is just a temporary anomaly 
>>> 
>>> I wouldn't be so sure of that in their place. And don't they *care* about torturing as many as possible? They value being lazy more than this? Albeit... are you suggesting to model them as having 4chan trolls' mindset, as opposed to a mindset of a pragmatic villain? That... that may just work out. Lol.

>>>> **u/xachariah** [+5]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> I wouldn't model them as lazy.  I'd just say they're assured that the universe works to their benefit.  
>>>> 
>>>> As an analogy, I wouldn't freak out if my paycheck had a glitch and got delayed for a week, because I'm in a secure spot in life and I know my company is good for it.  
>>>> 
>>>> The demons have 10,000+ years of precedence that tell them they'll get the souls they're due.  
>>>> 
>>>> (Also, there's no reason to believe demons are [suffering maximizers rather than adaption executors](https://www.lesserwrong.com/posts/XPErvb8m9FapXCjhA/adaptation-executers-not-fitness-maximizers).)

>> **u/AurelianoTampa** [+7]  (18 hours later)
>> 
>> > Why isn't Aerb controlled by devils yet?
>> 
>> I think that devils' possession has limits - not by other powers, but just in its nature. As Amaryllis stated in chapter 62:
>> 
>> >“It’s short-term, hours at most, maybe longer if they chained it, but they’re bad at coordination. If possessed, she’ll only have the strength of a human,” Amaryllis had replied. “The kinds of devils that can reach up to puppet her won’t be clever enough to be convincing, and if Fallatehr is smart, he’ll have his people punch her in the mouth if she tries to convince anyone. I don’t think she’s a threat.”
>> 
>> So it seems like possession is only short-term, and that the kinds of devils which possess people are not "clever" enough to be convincing except in short spurts. And now that infernal topology has been introduced, my guess is that moving between areas likely has an effect on possession; perhaps devils are confined to certain regions, or moving away from an area close to hells makes possession even shorter. This would make it pretty difficult for individual devils to wreck much long-term havoc.

>>> **u/Noumero** [+7]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (19 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Well, if the level of insight that Valencia demonstrated at the end of chapter 68 is on the level of a not-clever devil, that only exonerates the problem. Knowledge that devils on deeper levels are more clever implies some information flow from there to Aerb; an entity as clever as these devils are implied to be should be able to exploit it.
>>> 
>>> Regarding infernal topology, yes, it seems reasonable. Though it still leaves the question of *why* the devils are bad at coordination, and why the superintelligent deep devils can't make the lesser ones fall in line.

>>>> **u/Izeinwinter** [+11]  (21 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> I think she currently has a quite clever devil - Probably not the smartest they get, but they are currently in a location with very close hells- Amaryllis was stating facts as they hold in areas affected by the apocalypse hammer.

>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+4]  (11 hours later)
>> 
>> >Thousands of years of history and even brief periods of access to nonanimas should have allowed them to gradually take control of everything. Why didn't they? Possibilities:
>> 
>> Hell is *hell*. Why do long-term conquering for the sake of more broad-scale minor suffering, when they could make *everyone* they come across die (and then fade), and thereby go to *hell*, and go to hell *today*?
>> 
>> They should summon fellow demons, sure, but only to slaughter more people.

>>> **u/wassname** [+9]  *The Culture* (11 hours later)
>>> 
>>> if they are negative utilitarians, they still need someone to make more souls. Sounds like civilization is already optimized for that since it's the main power source...

>>>> **u/Noumero** [+7]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (12 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> To be pedantic, "negative utilitarians" are people who believe that minimizing suffering is more important than increasing happiness, not people who want to maximize suffering. I'm not sure how to call the latter, though. Anti-utilitarians? Or even "negative anti-utilitarians".
>>>> 
>>>> >Sounds like civilization is already optimized for that since it's the main power source...
>>>> 
>>>> No, no. It's optimized for *creating* souls, sure, but not for sending them to the hells; they don't go there if they're destroyed, and the overwhelming majority of them is destroyed.

>>>>> **u/wassname** [+7]  *The Culture* (13 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ah, I didn't know that, cheers. Maybe "suffering maximizers" would get the message across, even if it doesn't fit into the utilitarian subcategories.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I forgot about the destruction part, that indicates that perhaps the demons aren't secretly in control. Unless they lied about used up souls not going to hell :O. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> But it sounds like infernoscopes are easy to access for many people, so probably not. Otherwise the conspiracy would have to be so large and powerful there would be no point in keeping a secret. I think that as a conspiracy grows it becomes more costly/risky to keep the secret ([Metcalfe’s Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law) in reverse). At some point it's cheaper to go seize the reins of government and publicly dictate what you want.

>>>>>> **u/Noumero** [+5]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (16 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > Maybe "suffering maximizers" would get the message across, even if it doesn't fit into the utilitarian subcategories
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hmm. "Utilitarians" = "utility" + "-arians". If we're talking about suffering maximizers, then "disutilitarians" or "inutilitarians" are probably the correct forms. Or perhaps "[patir](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/p%C3%A2tir#French)itarians", if you want to backtrack ["utility"'s etymology](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/utility#English) too.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I agree regarding the conspiracies. Albeit, hmm, if the devils only lied about the souls and are able to somehow subvert the infernoscopes (move people who got soul-killed to "deeper" hells? I think it was mentioned that modern infernoscopes are only able to see up to five thousandth layer), it wouldn't be *that* complicated... but that sounds awfully like rationalizing away all inconvenient evidence.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Something to keep in mind, perhaps, but not the leading hypothesis.

>>>>>>> **u/EliezerYudkowsky** [+3]  *Godric Gryffindor* (21 hours later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If they can move souls to deeper hells, why not move everyone?

>>>>>>>> **u/Noumero** [+5]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (21 hours later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> For any number of (convoluted) reasons. Infernal politics, made complicated by the fact that devils themselves cannot move between layers freely. Or they want to deceive people of Aerb into thinking that they can't move them.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hm, alternatively, devils can't move them, but all "destroyed" souls automatically go to the nine thousandth hell anyway. That would make more sense: then the ubiquitous use of soul fuel is indeed a grand victory for them.

>>>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> If that's the case, what they would want is some sort of secluded area where they can set up and run a mass-soul-production and then let them fade instead of burning them for fuel. After all, why go for a relatively small and unlikely-to-succeed attempt to slaughter the people of Aerb, when they can have a renewable large-scale soul plant?
>>>> 
>>>> After all, conquering Aerb threatens power structures and will force resistance from the powers that be, but simply running an isolated soul plant? You could do that forever without appearing an actual threat.

>>>>> **u/wassname** [+1]  *The Culture* (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yeah, fair point

>>> **u/Noumero** [+2]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (12 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Why necessarily minor suffering? Gathering power is useful for nearly any purpose. Once in control, they could simply maximize the number of people sent to the hells, by extensively breeding then killing humans.
>>> 
>>> On the opposite, the current state of affairs seems very unfavourable for them. Most souls, even souls of hated enemies, don't go to the hells, they're instead extracted and used up as fuel. If the devils were more influential, they likely would've been able to stop that.

>> **u/BlueSigil** [+3]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> Maybe long term planning by devil's is Excluded?

>> **u/GMan129** [+2]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> >They do control everything, but secretly.
>> 
>> seems like a pretty reasonable possibility to me.

> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+49]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (a minute later)
> 
> Back on track after some holiday disruptions, apologies for the unplanned hiatus (which I probably could have avoided by putting these chapters out as they were finished).

>> **u/josephwdye** [+8]  *I love you* (2 hours later)
>> 
>> It's all good <3. I hope things are well and you had a enjoyable holiday.

>> **u/narfanator** [+4]  (a day later)
>> 
>> No worries! I was actually getting concerned, there'd been no activity on your account for a few weeks. Glad to hear it was just holidays.
>> 
>> Also super glad you're back and continuing the excellence.

> **u/xachariah** [+24]  (14 hours later)
> 
> Is Grak actually compromised?  
> 
> After a very long talk, where Val doesn't think of the concept of lying, she doesn't mention him.  Then right after Val discovers that she can lie and enjoys lying and is really good at lying...
> 
> >“So was Grak touched or not?”
> 
> >Valencia froze. “Yes,” she said. “What I said, last night, that was the truth. I was possessed when I said it, but it’s the truth.” 
> 
> Valencia wants Jun to kill Fallatehr and tries to convince him that he wants it too (and maybe he does).  Lying to Jun about this is a great way to get Fallatehr put on the 'must kill' list.
> 
> Also, narratively if this were an RPG, Valencia the Red would be overdue for the first evil companion.  She would be evil in the perfect CRPG manner: a total sociopath to everyone except the main character, to whom she is fully devoted.  She particularly reminds me of One-of-Many from Neverwinter Nights 2; he was a gestalt ball of souls that could consume the souls of others and access their skills, with wildly varying personalities.

>> **u/AurelianoTampa** [+6]  (18 hours later)
>> 
>> >a total sociopath to everyone except the main character, to whom she is fully devoted. 
>> 
>> I'm having flashbacks to Albedo from *Overlord*... would "yandere" fit the archetype you're describing?

>>> **u/xachariah** [+5]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Yandere would probably fit, although I'd assume that Val's stolen skills would let her avoid most of the cliche.
>>> 
>>> A socially master yandere is a lot scarier than Albedo, instead of just having physical power, someone like Val could seduce you in, emotionally isolate you, and create a codependent relationship without you even knowing.

>> **u/nytelios** [+10]  (21 hours later)
>> 
>> That's why I didn't get why Joon just passed her comments by (she also casually mentioned Fallatehr "had such plans and to go against them -") and left. 
>> 
>> The idiom *the devil's in the detail* is quite literal here. Rationally, the only way to deal with masterful liars is to catch them on inconsistencies and contradictions with reality, i.e. the truth will out. Amaryllis said devils were bad at coordination, so if that's true, Fallatehr's method of averaging responses is sensible when you're working with imperfect information.
>> 
>> Val's growth will be exciting to witness. She's effectively a "newborn" so she isn't evil (yet), but her parental/authority figure was Fallatehr and now it's Joon and possibly her inner captive devil. **But** she's a newborn who can tell when you're lying and can lie perfectly. How do you guide a child under those conditions? Right now she's likely at that stage where children have absolute loyalty to their parental figure no matter what their flaws. Joon can use that and in all sincerity say that her lies will lower his trust in her. At least sociopathic devotion to a decent person is infinitely preferable to a devil.

>> **u/rabotat** [+4]  (22 hours later)
>> 
>> >  I was possessed when I said it,
>> 
>> This is the key. When she is amazed that she can lie she says:
>> 
>> >“I did it!” she said. “I know what it feels like now, to be the one to do it, to say things that aren’t at all true and just, you believed me!”

> **u/xachariah** [+34]  (14 hours later)
> 
> It seems like nobody in Jun's party wants to put in a good faith effort with Fallatehr.
> 
> One of the problems of negotiating in bad faith is that if your partner is perceptive (and Fallatehr is perceptive), they have absolutely no reason to negotiate with you in good faith.  Jun and co are practically forcing him to betray them and have been since before they left the prison.
> 
> They don't seem to have particularly good reasons to want him dead.  Amaryllis knows he's innocent and was only convicted by ex-post-facto laws.  Fenn hates him because of racist/cultural elf reasons.  Jun should only hate him because he tried to kill them, but in Fallatehr's defense, he was literally minding his own business when some adventurers came into his house with the intention of abducting him, stealing his knowledge, and then killing him.  Self defense, imo.
> 
> Since Fallatehr isn't stupid and knows they intend to kill him, this means he has to do everything in his power to betray them, sabotage them, and generally mess them up.  
> 
> ----
> And if the party has no intention of honoring their deal with Fallatehr, they should at least be smart enough to pretend.
> 
> Right now they should be negotiating with Fallatehr for Val or brainstorming some way to stop him from overwriting others or something.  The fact that they aren't renegotiating now that they're in the position of power is telling in itself.  
> 
> I'm reminded of a quote from [Firefly episode 1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_uIQBnn6_A&t=1h3m5s) -   
> >[after concluding negotiations with Patience to sell some stolen property]  
> >Mal: I believe that woman's plannin' to shoot me again.  
> >Jayne: If she meant to pay you, she'd have haggle haggled you down some.  
> >Wash: Just a little effort to hide it would have been nice.
> 
> I'm sure Fallatehr is having exactly that conversation with himself right now.

>> **u/nytelios** [+10]  (21 hours later)
>> 
>> The risks are too high. Dealing with Fallatehr in good faith is irrational given the danger and past evidence of him tampering with neighboring souls. Signalling their intent to kill him is a different story though I don't recall them doing so. And frankly, Fallatehr's end goal is almost certainly to get his hands on Joon - for science!

>>> **u/Keshire** [+7]  (22 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I agree. A whole prison of Fallatehr-alikes is damning all on it's own.

>>> **u/xachariah** [+12]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Fallatehr's demonstrated powers don't make him any more dangerous than any other hostile person.
>>> 
>>> Fallatehr can take your life if he's able to touch you for more than a brief period of time, but that's a super power easily replicated by owning a knife.  During the time that Joon was looking at his own soul, Fallatehr could have just as easily killed Dahk and stabbed an icepick into Joon's brain.  Sure it's a scary fate to be soul controlled, but that's less bad than literally going to hell.
>>> 
>>> Fallatehr can also raise an army fairly quickly among people you wouldn't expect to want to kill you, but that's not even as good a superpower as being rich.  Eg, any scary mind control peasant mob is easier to fight than a hired assassin or strike team.
>>> 
>>> The most dangerous thing about him is that he's intelligent (which isn't unique) and that his easiest method of survival is to kill Jun (which could be avoided).

>>>> **u/nytelios** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Those points are predicated on apathy toward safety. Just because Fallatehr's not any more dangerous than any other hostile person doesn't mean you deal with hostile people in good faith without failsafes. You wouldn't invite a verified assassin to arm's length for a heart to heart. The danger is that you can't trust him: but I agree the party is shooting themselves in the foot and ensuring his enmity by planning to kill him.

> **u/cZirconium** [+12]  (an hour later)
> 
> Okay, the mortise/tenon gag got a laugh out of me

>> **u/nytelios** [+6]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Was that a jab at Joon for dropping Woodworking or does woodworking play a more prominent role in Aerb that Fenn knows the term (and Joon doesn't)?

> **u/GrecklePrime** [+14]  (4 hours later)
> 
> I got very concerned when Juniper said earth-shattering in chapter 68. Does this mean the demons now know he's dream skewered?

>> **u/Noumero** [+10]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (12 hours later)
>> 
>> I'm pretty sure everyone of any importance already knows. Consider chapters 63-64. Juniper used the term "residual self-image", and mentioned that "'Valencia' means strength, where I come from". Given the level of cleverness we're talking about, that was as good as directly stating that he is dream-skewered.
>> 
>> Hell, if Fallatehr is half as perceptive as the devil Valencia is inverse-possessing right now, he should know too at this point.

> **u/Jskunsa** [+22]  (52 minutes later)
> 
> Man I love this story. I must have checked twice a day since the last chapters were posted. Thanks so much for writing it!

>> **u/Kilbourne** [+1]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Same here.

> **u/GeeJo** [+12]  *Custom Flair* (6 hours later)
> 
> > Fenn, light of my life, fire of my soul,
> 
> That's an...uh...[interesting reference](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/32046-lolita-light-of-my-life-fire-of-my-loins-my) for Joon to make. 
> 
> Though if anyone hasn't read the original, I'd heartily recommend the audiobook read by Jeremy Irons. Dude has a voice that gives every justice to Nabokov's prose.

> **u/Ristridin1** [+10]  (23 hours later)
> 
> > He shrugged. “It was far less work than it had any right to be. Your chest will be more difficult, as it forms the link for your internal organs and there is nothing to take from, but from the pace you’ve been keeping, it should only be a matter of days, at which point our primary business will be concluded.”
> 
> Wasn't Fallatehr supposed to be unaware of Juniper's chest problems? If this is Fallatehr knowing more than he should, I would expect a reaction from Juniper to this remark.
> 
> In chapter 64, Juniper resolves not to mention that yet (although he does ask the question how to restore something without an original template, without mentioning his ribs specifically). I don't see any specific place where this has changed.

>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+8]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (23 hours later)
>> 
>> Error on my part, though Fallatehr *does* know from that previous conversation that the problems are more extensive than just the hand. Will fix, probably later tonight.

>>> **u/dalitt** [+3]  (4 days later)
>>> 
>>> Seems not to have been fixed yet, though obviously this is a minor issue.  Stuck out to me when I read this chapter as well.

> **u/None** [+10]  (2 hours later)
> 
> > infernal topology
> 
> Yes! Math as a source of metaphors is something I like a lot in writing, and topology is a good field to choose for that.
> 
> So is infernal topology the study of the shape of hell or that of devils? To be honest, the second version seems more intriguing... but Chapter 69 implies that it will be the first :(
> 
> > I’m the glove it fit its hand into, but now that hand is mine, because I’m its glove.
> 
> Now that's a point in support of devils being topologically interesting, because it seems like she flipped its normal orientation. I'm not a topologist, so I might be getting the term wrong, but that is essentially what happened, right? While she doesn't literally possess the devil now, she did invert the power imbalance.
> 
> Thank you for writing, as always.

>> **u/wassname** [+3]  *The Culture* (6 hours later)
>> 
>> And now they can go to the point of largest distance between planes (that they can teleport to) and put the possession question to rest.

>>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+3]  (10 hours later)
>>> 
>>> *Or* they could stay right where they are, and let Valencia drain this current demon dry while she still can. What if demons cannot/will not possess her, now that she's protected by the 'twin souls'? It'd be a shame to lose the absolute *mastery* of martial arts, just to check the possession slightly earlier.

>>>> **u/wassname** [+1]  *The Culture* (11 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah I can imagine them deciding not to possess her if word gets out. I guess it depends on the description of the skill that Joon hasn't read yet (if it has a clear description).

>>>>> **u/sharikak54** [+2]  (14 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Description was updated.  Definitely not clear. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> > And there, just below the biography:
>>>>> 
>>>>> > Companion Passive: Valencia is a loyal companion, now properly part of your kharass, though she is still without a soul. The non-anima is grasping, reaching, an unnatural construct trying to find its way in the world. Power has, for the first time in her life, found its way into her hands.

>>>>> **u/Izeinwinter** [+2]  (21 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> That depends if the demons and devils survive her use of them. She is stated to be feeding on them. That sounds.. kind of fatal. Tough it does mean her available skill set might change drastically at regular intervals. Currently she has nigh-infinite social-fu. A demon, by contrast might render her a combat monster without giving her this kind of insight.

> **u/WalterTFD** [+8]  (2 hours later)
> 
> I dunno if I buy this whole 'now Valencia is the one in charge of the Daemons' thing.  I think the demons are mucking around with whatever passes for her soul, and it is fooling the Game Layer.

>> **u/Makin-** [+12]  *homestuck ratfic, you can do it* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> I buy it because it seems unlikely demons could predict the loyalty change to time it perfectly.

>>> **u/JusticeBeak** [+10]  (16 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Me too, because "infernal capture" sounds like it could only mean one thing, and I don't think the game layer has been shown to lie yet.

>>> **u/infomaton** [+7]  (8 hours later)
>>> 
>>> If a demon was inside her at the time, they'd presumably experience and possibly benefit from whatever change occurred.

>>> **u/WalterTFD** [+1]  (18 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Hmm, good point.  I was kind of thinking that they knew about the game layer, but they would have  to know the timing on it as well.

> **u/sparkc** [+9]  (9 hours later)
> 
> Just noting my appreciation for the D&D interlude banter and Reimers quips.

>> **u/rabotat** [+2]  (22 hours later)
>> 
>> Yep, some of my favourite parts of this story are the Earth elements.

> **u/XxChronOblivionxX** [+7]  (6 hours later)
> 
> And my fondness for Valencia increases. Good chapters.

> **u/None** [+7]  (a day later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/Noumero** [+2]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (3 days later)
>> 
>> Sure, but then she said the following:
>> 
>> >“I know what it feels like now, to be the one to do it, to say things that aren’t at all true and just, you believed me!”
>> 
>> If the questions didn't count as lying, then this statement is a lie.

>> **u/CopperZirconium** [+1]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Yeah that tripped me up too. I thought she couldn't lie and was trying to deflect. But then other things wouldn't make sense if that was the case.

> **u/nohat** [+13]  (7 hours later)
> 
> I quite like this whole story.
> 
> I find the freaking out over Fallatehr after the fact pretty funny considering how casually they treated him before that (despite having good reason to be seriously concerned). A serious mistake by usually (somewhat) more cautious characters, but not too implausible storywise, as long as the characters actually learn from their mistakes. 
> 
> Kinda sad that getting Fallatehr's help with higher levels of essentiallism and the locus probably isn't happening (especially since I happen to quite like Fallatehr). They are also being a little unusually ruthless... Killing him and all of his minions is practical but a bit disturbing. I kinda feel a few hundred years imprisonment might be enough morally speaking. 
> 
> Jun might want to consider tamping down the 'level up' value. At the prison that was clearly working against his presumed meta value of 'living.'
> 
> Great world building in general. I'm not quite convinced its truly consistent, but its at least very interesting, and I'm always curious to learn more.
> 
> There's always difficulty writing characters that make mistakes, but aren't idiots or just unlucky. Juniper's blindspots do have some added explanations from just being 17, plus stress and inexperience. You've done a pretty good job, though Juniper is weirdly uninterested in actually learning magic. I mean, I wouldn't wait even a second to pursue time magic once I learned of it. I would wait -10 years. Also hells, exclusion, gods, etc.
> 
> Is Jun ever going to realize that going out without armor or splitting the party will always result in bad things? Seriously...
> 
> Amaryllis is actually probably my favorite character. Her values are a bit more meta, which makes sense to me. The back and forth of distrust from Jun was quite well displayed.
> 
> It seems like devils have, effectively, impossibly high social skills, but they were still limited a lot by no one trusting them. No seemed to take her claim regard Grak seriously before, so does her twinned soul mean that Valencia can now use 'game' logic when she's convincing someone? After all even the PC was apparently supernaturally convinced of a lie.
> 
> I'm still not sure about his previous 'nat 20.' insight, but shouldn't he test that? Get an actual success failure distribution? 
> 
> The cosmic horror of the game and the narrative are well done, though I'm not really a fan of the sorta intrinsic fourth wall break, and in universe forced narrative structure really puts me off... it just makes the events in the story seem meaningless and lacking in tension.
> 
> I was actually confused when it turned out Juniper Smith was his real name, that just sounded like a fake name (something I would totally do if magic was suddenly real... true names being a trope and all).

>> **u/Keshire** [+6]  (22 hours later)
>> 
>> > it just makes the events in the story seem meaningless and lacking in tension.
>> 
>> Unless you put in place that the cosmic narrative horror can make human mistakes. Or like in real D&D is forced to wing it. And just like D&D the characters can and will attempt to subvert what they can. This can lead to campaigns spiraling out of control of even the best Game Masters.
>> 
>> Like Jun said, there are unspoken rules in place to at least keep the appearance that it isn't just a straight up game or being railroaded.

>>> **u/nohat** [+3]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> It is possible to move the conflict to the next level (ie tricking the GM). They don't have much info, and it's awfully indirect and nebulous, not nearly as viscerally tense or satisfying.

>> **u/None** [+4]  (a day later)
>> 
>> > I kinda feel a few hundred years imprisonment might be enough morally speaking. 
>> 
>> What does this mean, exactly? He clearly wasn't rehabilitated in any meaningful sense, and in fact was not put in prison for any specific crime but rather as sort of a political maneuver. If anything, I would assume that his time in prison has made him less likely to be a moral person.

>>> **u/nohat** [+3]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Up until the prison they hadn't killed anyone who wasn't trying to kill them. In the prison they quickly switched to killing allies because it would be convenient later, with little to no qualms. A simple explanation of this is that the prisoners were criminals, and hence it was 'okay.' I posit that a few hundred years should be enough to assuage the straightforward 'criminals don't count as innocents' moralization.
>>> 
>>> I mean that they haven't actually looked into what the prisoner's did or who they are, but are happy to kill them because it would be strategically beneficial. They all seriously hate Fallatehr and were planning to betray him well before he actually did anything to them (except for the void bomb but they actually don't seem to care about that at all). 
>>> 
>>> There are several other explanations. One is that they are just that afraid of Fallatehr's mind control abilities. But they weren't that wary or cautious until experience bit them. One is that they think he is a monster who would wreak havoc on the world, but they talk about this and seem to agree that he is a fairly laid back scientist, not a megalomaniac.

>>>> **u/Ace_Kuper** [+2]  (7 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, i mentioned this in some prior parts and even here with my HUGE comment.
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe it's the "in universe forced narrative structure", but so far every conflict that the party was a part of tend to be resolved in murderhobo ways.
>>>> 
>>>> Wait, it just hit me now. I think there are literally 0 people outside of the party that they formed a friendly connection with. People they interacted with are either dead or betrayed them in some way. The only exception is the Bone mage, but it was just paid services and i don't count those or every clerk and shopkeeper would be a part of the story. I think it's a fun problem of the RPG to real world transition, people outside of the mentioned "sell\buy NPC's" do not exists so far. Maybe i forgot someone.

>> **u/None** [+5]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> > The cosmic horror of the game and the narrative are well done, though I'm not really a fan of the sorta intrinsic fourth wall break, and in universe forced narrative structure really puts me off... it just makes the events in the story seem meaningless and lacking in tension.
>> 
>> Agreed, it's by far my biggest problem with this story.

>> **u/C_Densem** [+3]  *LessWrong (than usual)* (3 days later)
>> 
>> "The cosmic horror of the game and the narrative are well done, though I'm not really a fan of the sorta intrinsic fourth wall break, and in universe forced narrative structure really puts me off... it just makes the events in the story seem meaningless and lacking in tension."
>> 
>> This is only really a fourth wall break if you assume the "DM" is the author. There are so many other, scarier options for that.

> **u/Green0Photon** [+4]  *Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar* (3 hours later)
> 
> I'm confused at what happened at the end of Chapter 69. Someone please explain.

>> **u/Gr_Cheese** [+5]  (2 days later)
>> 
>> The Black Spire and White Spire have been foreshadowed in previous chapters as being something dangerous, as I recall they were listed with the mimsies and other excluded things. We don't know much about the Spires, but shit is about to go down.
>> 
>> Also the golden guy who's "leading" Joon and Fenn to the Spires is the equivalent of a Demi-God and is not a friendly.

> **u/AStartlingStatement** [+3]  (2 hours later)
> 
> I was jonesing over the holiday and now a triple shot! I'm happy.

> **u/AStartlingStatement** [+3]  (3 hours later)
> 
> If Aerb has ten times the surface area of earth with 44 continents it would have to be hollow or the gravity would be way too high.

>> **u/Noumero** [+22]  *Self-Appointed Court Statistician* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Ahem, Aerb is *flat*.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+10]  *Mouse Army* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alderson_disk
>> 
>> If I remember correctly the gravity on a uniform plane of the right thickness can be made to uniformely be 1g. Since Aerb is a hexplane that should be fine. 
>> 
>> Doesnt explain how the orbital mechanics work though.

>>> **u/AStartlingStatement** [+3]  (3 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Oh I didn't know it was a disc, yeah it could work like this. 
>>> 
>>> >If I remember correctly the gravity on a uniform plane of the right thickness can be made to uniformely be 1g
>>> 
>>> Yes with correct thickness it would be 1g on both sides of the disc.

>>>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+8]  *Mouse Army* (4 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Not a disk, a plane hexagon!

>> **u/GlueBoy** [+6]  *anti-skub* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Aerb is a hexagon, not a globe. So gravity has to work substantially different there.

>> **u/Makin-** [+3]  *homestuck ratfic, you can do it* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Maybe the universe has different physical laws or magic holds the setting together. Or even more simply, the core is less dense, not hollow.

>>> **u/ArisKatsaris** [+1]  *Sidebar Contender* (13 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Aerb is not a planet

> **u/Ace_Kuper** [+13]  (24 minutes later)
> 
> I made it sooner this time.
> 
> This is probably going to be a lengthy post so let me start right.
> 
> **First of all** i really liked the story and characters, even tho binge reading kills my soul cause i have a habit of putting myself into characters shoes.
> 
> I find so elements of the story or rather Junipers description of things funny or ironic considering his knowledge, but i it maybe a personal thing.
> 
> Here is the list if this funny\ironic things.
> 
> **1. At the start of the novel he comments about video games having less freedom or free form compared to D&D and the like.**
> 
> But i'm pretty sure there are plenty types of video games that allow you to just run a simulation of regular life Sims style or even be a Tycoon. Even some RPG's are strictly about running your own shop and being a merchant. In the world of Aerb and to an extension in the previous D&D sessions of juniper he says the narrative wouldn't allow it or it would be boring. I think this highly depends on the group you are playing with and the system you use. There are even some homebrew systems like Maid RPG and i'm sure there are some that are dedicated or applicable to running a fantasy tavern with friends that can be used after you are tired of looting and plundering. This leads into 2.
> 
> **2. I guess D&D is more rigid about stuff you can do and what exactly counts as out of box thinking.**
> 
> But it seems the narrative and his previous D&D experience was to an extent about party being a Murderhobo type. We have them talk about issues and discuss roles and being in character, but at the end of the day Aerb and snippets of previous escapades lean towards kill them after identifying the problems you have with them approach. Every "enemy" or problem is mostly resolved with killing stuff, in a smart or roundabout way, but still. They are not full on murderhobos, but funnily enough they are technically hobos and they do murder a lot. System itself lead into 3.
> 
> **3. The d20, fabled natural 20**
> 
> I was under impression that physics still worked somewhat normally in D&D and the example of sickly crippled man vs. knight in super armor raise a couple of questions. The d20 results of critical successes very not misrepresented per say, but the explanation was somewhat weird for me. 
> 
> For example a super strong warrior saying that he starts flapping his hands and begins to fly wouldn't prompt the DM giving him flight even he throws a 20 and at the very list all rules thrown aside would require a series of 20 for a variety of tests.
> 
> In the case of crippled guy he would not only require an aim throw of 20, but at least a strength check of 20, maybe even a vitality check so that he isn't crumpling to the ground cause his body can't take it. I'm also pretty sure the difficulty of the task affects the rolls and makes it semi to impossible to make it even with a 20 at hand. I guess grazing the cheek and not straight up murder is the result of this super successes failing, but it still kinda felt like treating d20 as something that it's not.
> 
> **4.  The DM not being able to wiggle the results.**
> 
> This one seemed pretty funny since there is a system that bears name of Pendragon and if i remember correctly it actually has the exact thing that would have helped Amaryllis in their D&D game to protect her sister. It's called Passions and she would be able to make a passion roll or DM could say she should make one or gets a bonus, since she is protecting her Sister and Family could be a passion in that system.
> 
> **5. Bond Girl and creating conflict**
> 
> Again kinda ties into the whole D&D in Junipers case was more about fight action and other systems followed in similar ways. There are more narrative driven systems, but i'm sure author knows that.
> 
> The conflict or interest generated from Bond Girl syndrome serves almost no purpose in the D&D campaign and in the case of Aerb's DM  (him existing or not) would loose all tension after a couple of deaths. Repetition of the same trick is kinda tires people and players or observers\readers wouldn't really care after the 5 attempt cause it would seem artificial. For all the 'rules" of narrative Aerb "follows" it certainly can hint at choosing boring\artificial ones to uphold. The Bond thing also raises the question of the DM's ability to tell a story, cause Bond Girls were more of a necessity and inability to progress the character\story with them intact. Also Bond from a movies stand point was played by different people too, would it call for Juniper changing for another protagonist who is similar and in some cases totally different?
> 
> In case of his previous D&D group the DM(Juniper) would be somewhat an asshole somewhat if he tried to create tension by killing the lover frequently or at all, cause for it to work the pair would be a real couple of players - aka real people and his friends (murder without reason mind you, they can't just say love wins all the battles). There is a little chance of someone role playing a realistic romance and even if they did that, they wouldn't exactly care about death of an NPC after a couple of times. It's like making all of the chests in the game mimics, you become desensitized and don't really care after a while, no tension just tired of the same tricks even if it's a variety of mimics.
> 
> **6. Stagnation and change, there is conflict or there is non?**
> 
> I know people are complex creatures and not everything can be solved by analyzing what someone said or did. This just seemed funny and part of it felt wrong or out of place.
> 
> Joon's thought process or things he thought about after the revelation of Fenn being thirty-three years old seemed kinda strange and didn't sit well with me. It wasn't out of character or contradictory to himself in a span of those thought, but it seemed kinda out of place with itself on a small scale. I wish i could put my finger on it, but maybe i'm just confusing myself or combining multiple different dialogs and talks into one in my head.
> 
> His assumption of her not changing in the span of 16 years, or his definition of maturity and what "adult" people do and feel, seemed okay for a panicked reaction of a 17 year old, but at the same time felt strange and like him thinking it for story reasons and not person reasons. He wanted to change and grow with her, but at the same time he didn't want her to change previously and i bet even after this. I guess there is nuance to those "changes", but it still felt like going in circles.
> 
> I'm also sure that not addressing personal problems or even thinking about them as problems or "high school level drama" and not as people being themselves, is totally healthy and not a problem onto itself (Sarcasm). But this at least is in connection with a 17 year old boy who didn't really see much of the world.
> 
> **All in all this story is a great read and i hope people will notice and disagree\agree and talk\comment about points a brought up.**
> 
> This is up to chapter 65 and i had some other thoughts after that, but it's being some time (unplanned hiatus) and it's night here so i don't remember. I mainly want people to comment on my points or bring up their own.
> 
> **Edit**: I think some of my new points were about skills in relation to soul editing, but i honestly forgot them, maybe i should read the new chapters and bring stuff up after.
> 
> **Edit+**: Just remembered it.
> 
> **7. Skill limits and soul**:
> 
> This one is more of a speculation, wouldn't Juniper have those skills not because he needed them or DM giving them, but for the reason of the body\soul of the guy he replaced possessing those skills or potential to unlock them. Or those skills being a combination of his and that guys souls merging? Like maybe the guys wasn't just straight up erased, but his souls was edited to become Juniper.

>> **u/rabotat** [+3]  (22 hours later)
>> 
>> I feel I already read this comment before, at least the first part.
>> 
>> If you copy/paste your comment from before and then update it, you might get better results by linking to your past comment, and simply making a fresh update in the new thread.
>> 
>> I think more people would read it that way, since no one is reading an old comment they've already seen in the past, especially if it is this long.

>>> **u/Ace_Kuper** [+0]  (22 hours later)
>>> 
>>> You did, it was copied.
>>> 
>>> Thanks, for the advice. I doubt anyone would check the previous version. This would not have an update if i didn't remember it at the last moment.
>>> 
>>> I just posted it late in the Chapter 65 thread and thought people might have missed it.
>>> 
>>> Since no one responded to my points, i will just think of new ones if they appear or repost this after 40+ chapters, if it's still relevant. Maybe at that time someone would question\discuss them.
>>> 
>>> The only new thing is - Edits and the part after. I hope upvotes is a sign of people at least reading it, maybe partially.

> **u/GaBeRockKing** [+3]  *Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857* (a day later)
> 
> I just got around to reading these chapters, to notice an absolutely ludicrous number of guests have put kudos on this work. Congratulations! Hopefully this fame can translate to a good negotiation position with a publisher (if you're interested in working with one, that is) because I very much would like to own a physical copy of this work once it gets completed :)

> **u/Badewell** [+3]  (2 days later)
> 
> Just caught up with the story after the past few days and I've really been enjoying it.
> 
> I haven't seen any discussion about it here or in the thread on Chapter 64 (sorry if this has been talked about elsewhere). I am extremely bothered (in a good way) by how Joon's addiction to level ups is being portrayed. And maybe even more so by the fact that Joon *doesn't* seem to be bothered by it at all.
> 
> He's observed himself getting more obsessive for the level up rush, to the point where he realizes that it's affecting his decision making in critical situations, but I don't believe that he ever actually thinks that it's a problem he should think about solving. I remember early on thinking that it's going to awkward when he explains to Fenn and Mary about the problem, but 300k words later and I'm pretty sure he never brings it up to anyone.
> 
> And with Ch. 64 he finds out that he values leveling up more than anything and just sort of glosses over it. (Also he doesn't say where he himself is ranked in his list of values, and I'm hoping that just means he didn't mention it and not that it didn't make the top 20 or so.)
> 
> At this point I'm wondering if the DM has literally put a mental block on Joon to make him not question the addiction.
> 
> ...but at the same time as someone who has sunk a huge amount of hours into MMORPGs maybe I just want that to be true because the alternative hits a little too close to home?

> **u/knite** [+2]  (10 hours later)
> 
> **Three** chapters?! This is a delight!

> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+3]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (a minute later)
> 
> Typos here, please.

>> **u/MultipartiteMind** [+6]  (17 hours later)
>> 
>> I couldn't parse the intended meaning of this:
>> 
>> 'I feel like if you were an elf I would find myself just constantly explaining how elves do things. Seems like it must be annoying.”'

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+3]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (23 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Um, that was screw up on my part (fixed now) should have been:
>>> 
>>> > I feel like if you were an elf I would find myself just constantly explaining how **humans** do things. Seems like it must be annoying.
>>> 
>>> Hopefully that makes it clear?

>>>> **u/MultipartiteMind** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, much better thank you!  Why the 'Seems like it must be annoying', though?  (More annoying than explaining to a human how elves do things, and if so why..?)
>>>> 
>>>> \*now having fun imagining Juniper as an elf coming from a world with no humans, with humans a very-different-from-Aerb made-up race in D&D games\*

>> **u/Kerbal_NASA** [+3]  (4 hours later)
>> 
>> ch. 67
>> 
>> >while Fallatehr’s other two minions had grudgingly given leave to go into town by Amaryllis
>> 
>> grudgingly given -> grudgingly been given
>> 
>> OR
>> 
>> ->while Amaryllis had grudgingly given leave to Fallatehr’s other two minions to go into town.
>> 
>> [OR something else]
>> 
>> >The specific materials necessary became quite a bit rarely following the Appetency War
>> 
>> rarely -> rarer
>> 
>> ch. 69:
>> >The farmhouse had come with two car,
>> 
>> car -> cars
>> 
>> Also in ch. 67, I don't know if this is wrong, but just my personal preference:
>> 
>> >I’d like for you to walk me through the process for fixing my hand,
>> 
>> process for fixing -> process of fixing
>> 
>> edit: [GrecklePrime pointed out](https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/7phthu/rtwip_worth_the_candle_ch_6769_handredlol_69/dshtdbt/) Juniper using the words "earth-shattering" around the demons, which was a great spot (I definitely missed that), but now I'm wondering if that was actually intentional.

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed all those, thank you.

>> **u/NotACauldronAgent** [+2]  *Probably* (26 minutes later)
>> 
>> Not quite a typo, but when I click the link to vote on TWF, it sends be to a broken AO3 page. I am on mobile, so it may be that.

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+2]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (30 minutes later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed that, thanks, that's what I get for not checking.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+2]  *Mouse Army* (58 minutes later)
>> 
>>  >Move / Copy / Modify / Delete
>> 
>> >I stared at those options for a bit. Copy was obviously the one that I wanted, but the other ~~four~~[three] gave me a good guess

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+2]  *Mouse Army* (2 hours later)
>> 
>> ch 69: 
>> 
>> >Power law? Homeleron doesn’t know what [they] is.

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks (and have an inbox full of these messages!).

>> **u/nytelios** [+2]  (8 hours later)
>> 
>> 69
>> 
>> so maybe my view of my role in Aerb ~~in~~ is a bit warped
>> 
>> The transitory nature of the jewels makes it ~~took~~ look unwieldy
>> 
>> attendants who transfer**R**ed

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (23 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed all those, thank you.

>> **u/Ace_Kuper** [+2]  (13 hours later)
>> 
>> Chapter 69. Not a typo per say, but it left me slightly confused.
>> 
>> " Ropey stayed with me, on the theory that Ropey technically belonged to Amaryllis, and she could compel him to lie."
>> 
>> "**This wasn’t something that she had mentioned** when I’d woken up in the morning, which made me slightly uneasy"
>> 
>> Should  it be something "she had mentioned only this morning" instead of not mentioning?
>> 
>> Since both the Ropey and the situation for needing his unbiased opinion arised well before "this morning". Seems kinda strange for this suspicion to pop up just now, without a proper reason and the problem being not all prior instances of Amaryllis not mentioning it, but "this morning" exactly. It could be "she didn't mention it before", not just "this morning".

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (23 hours later)
>>> 
>>> "This morning" was when he had checked with Ropey on waking up, ch 66, to see whether anything had happened in the middle of the night, after Amaryllis had already been awake for a bit and was standing near him. His feeling is that on seeing him do that, she should have pointed out that it wouldn't have protected him if she had somehow been compromised in the middle of the night.

>>>> **u/Ace_Kuper** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Well, this is what made it confusing. It was 2 chapters after the fact, so i thought "in the morning" was a new day. Plus that exchange was so short, just a sentence with "clear", so i totally forgot it.
>>>> 
>>>> >to see whether anything had happened in the middle of the night, after Amaryllis had already been awake for a bit and was standing near him
>>>> 
>>>> If you mentioned that Juniper remembered the waking up to Amarylis standing near him, this would be a lot less confusing to me. I think recalling that short exchange is kinda hard, after two chapters of Juniper second guessing every move and with no clear indication of how much time has passed(maybe i just missed that).
>>>> 
>>>> Something like "This wasn’t something that she had mentioned when I’d woken up in the morning **with her standing near me(in the room)**". I would have remembered or understood why he is worrying about it now.
>>>> 
>>>> But it maybe just me or reading this chapters after so much time has passed and not back to back.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+1]  *Mouse Army* (48 minutes later)
>> 
>> >Tell me about [your] intriguing capacity for learning

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+1]  *Mouse Army* (an hour later)
>> 
>> >We[re] that mindset not used against me, I might find it commendable.

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+1]  *Mouse Army* (an hour later)
>> 
>> >Would [have you] assaulted Aumann’s on your own?”
>> 
>> Also same sentence: Aumann's [tower] or just Aumann.

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+1]  *Mouse Army* (an hour later)
>> 
>> > He was already in the loop on that one, though I'd be looping him in a little me
>> 
>> Dont even what thats supposed to be, but the "me" at the end is not right there.

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+1]  *Mouse Army* (an hour later)
>> 
>> “I do really enjoy ~~like~~ your company, but --”
>> 
>> Unless Joon suddenly started talking like a clicheed teenage girl.

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks.

>> **u/vaegrim** [+1]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> In Chapter 67
>> 
>> > said Fallatehr. “*We* that mindset not used against me,
>> 
>> were

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+1]  *Mouse Army* (2 hours later)
>> 
>> Chapter 69: 
>> 
>> >I was a [bit] player. And now I’m, you know, sitting in a car with a guy who, [and] hour ago, accidentally turned off the world and then started it back up again
>> 
>> Not sure what a "bit player" is supposed to be.

>>> **u/AurelianoTampa** [+3]  (2 hours later)
>>> 
>>> > Not sure what a "bit player" is supposed to be. 
>>> 
>>> It's a theater term. A bit player is someone with a very small role, usually with just a couple lines of dialogue (if any).

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thank you.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+1]  *Mouse Army* (2 hours later)
>> 
>> >‘That thing’ ~~was~~[were] the two depressions I could feel in the back of my mind, one filled with jewels and the other empty.

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks.

>> **u/None** [+1]  (2 hours later)
>> 
>> All in chapter 69.
>> 
>> > elfs
>> 
>> > Riemer
>> 
>> > fourth-dimensional^1
>> 
>> > for the good of the this city
>> 
>> ***
>> 
>> 1 This one is open to some debate, but I feel like I would have used four-dimensional in all instances. Wikipedia seems to agree; it lists a [four-dimensional space](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensional_space), in contrast to a [fourth dimension](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_dimension).

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+3]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed those, thanks. I left in "fourth-dimensional distance", because "fourth-dimensional distance" to me indicates a distance on the *w* axis, where a "four-dimensional distance" would mean a distance from through all four dimensions, if that makes sense.

>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+2]  (14 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> > "four-dimensional distance" to me indicates a distance on the w axis, where a "four-dimensional distance" would mean a distance from through all four dimensions, if that makes sense.
>>>> 
>>>> [](/karmaresconfused) Ummmm... not really. I think you may have a typo in a fairly critical part of that sentence.

>>>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+2]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (23 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Er, right, fixed.

>>>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+1]  (23 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [](/twibeam) That makes *significantly* more sense now, thanks!

>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+2]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (8 hours later)
>>> 
>>> The debate is because ordinal numbers for dimensions were common in British English, whereas cardinal numbers were used in the USA.  However, like "billion" (million million or thousand million?), modern computing has made the latter into an accepted standard everywhere except particularly stuffy university departments.
>>> 
>>> I do a lot of work with 4D data - satellite imagery often has x, y, time, and color dimensions, atmosphere and ocean have x/y/time/altitude - and this comes up surprisingly often.
>>> 
>>> So in modern usage the whole thing is *four-d*, and a line oriented along the fourth dimension is *fourth-dimensional*.  The distinction is between saying number of dimensions in the first case, and saying which particular dimension (of some number) this one-dimensional thing is oriented along.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+1]  *Mouse Army* (2 hours later)
>> 
>> ch 69: 
>> 
>> >So I looked up the hill, and saw ~~a~~what he was talking about

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thanks.

>> **u/thrawnca** [+1]  *Carbon-based biped* (4 hours later)
>> 
>> Chapter 67
>> 
>> had grudgingly given leave/had been grudgingly given leave
>> 
>> Chapter 69
>> 
>> what they is/what they are

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed those, thanks.

>> **u/Saintsant** [+1]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> Chapter 68
>> 
>> Valencia's companion summary lists Fallatehr's last name as Whitestaff, not Whiteshell. 
>> 
>> Chapter 69
>> 
>> Dungoen Master -> Dungeon Master

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed those, thanks.

>> **u/GeeJo** [+1]  *Custom Flair* (6 hours later)
>> 
>> Chapter 66: 
>> 
>> > Amarylllis

>> **u/russxbox** [+1]  (19 hours later)
>> 
>> Ch. 69
>> 
>> >"The transitory nature of the jewels makes it [took] unwieldy and kind of unworkable on the larger scale...
>> 
>> Either too or look, depending on Arthur's turn of idiom.

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (23 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thank you.

>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+0]  *Mouse Army* (2 hours later)
>> 
>> ch.69 
>> >you are hereby ordered to follow upon penalty of death, for the good of the ~~this~~ city.

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+1]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Fixed, thank you.

> **u/None** [+2]  (8 hours later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/AnonymousAvatar** [+8]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> Go back to the previous chapter. It explains that this setting is a creation of Joon's where people constantly vote on who should govern via a mental assignment visualized as jewels floating in little cranial reservoirs.

---