scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/8cppyk.md

## [D] Worth the Candle seems to be gone

* Author: u/Makin-  *homestuck ratfic, you can do it**
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/8cppyk/d_worth_the_candle_seems_to_be_gone/
* Score: 71

* Created: 2018-04-16T18:19:52

### Post:

# EDIT: see response [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/8cppyk/d_worth_the_candle_seems_to_be_gone/dxgv09w/) (tl;dr patreon links needed to be removed)

I get a generic "Sorry, you don't have permission to access the page you were trying to reach." whenever I try to access Worth the Candle.

http://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/25740126

Anyone know what's going on? /u/alexanderwales ?


### Comments:

> **u/alexanderwales** [+115]  *Time flies like an arrow* (47 minutes later)
> 
> Edit: The story appears to have been restored.
> 
> ----
> 
> Not to worry (much), just bureaucratic stuff that's mostly my fault. Here's the e-mail I got 11 days ago, which was auto-filed to a folder that I don't check.
> 
> > The AO3 Policy & Abuse committee has received a complaint regarding your work "Worth the Candle", stating that it violates the AO3 “no commerce” rule. 
> 
> > Section IV.B. of our Terms of Service states that “promotion of commercial products or activities is not allowed”. Additionally, our ToS FAQ explains: “We want the Archive to remain a non-commercial space. That means that it isn’t the right place for offering merchandise, even fan-related merchandise. Linking to your personal page (not, for example, an Amazon author page) is fine, even if the personal page includes some items for sale, but the Archive is not advertising space."
> 
> > Linking to a personal website or blog/social network where you are taking donations, posting commissions or mentioning published works is permitted, but advertising it directly on the Archive is not, nor is using language which one might interpret as requesting financial contributions. For example, you can say something to the effect of “check out my Tumblr if you want to know more about me and my writing” and include the link to the site, but you cannot specifically state anything about donations, commissions or sales on the Archive.
> 
> > As such, we require you to edit out all the offending content from your account within 7 days. This includes anything that might be in any other works and in your profile. If you fail to delete the offending material by the date given, we’ll hide this work and any other violating works so they are only visible to you. If the works are not edited within a week of being hidden, an Archive administrator will delete this work and any other violating works.
> 
> > When you created your account, you agreed to comply with our Terms of Service, including our “no commerce” policy. A formal warning has now been placed on your account; failure to comply with the terms of this letter, or further violations of the ToS, may result in the temporary or permanent suspension of your account. You may consult our Terms of Service FAQ for more information regarding warnings and suspensions: archiveofourown.org/tos_faq#content_faq.
> 
> I didn't actually read the ToS, and I'm not really involved with the Ao3 community, so my first warning of this was the story being hidden by the admins. I've removed links to Patreon from the story (in the summary, and in the most recent chapter), and responded to the e-mail that had languished in the folder; we'll see what kind of turnaround time there is.
> 
> I'll choose to believe that the anonymous report was from a Good Samaritan who wanted to ensure that Ao3 is able to achieve its objectives, rather than just someone who hated the story (or me personally) and was being vindictive.
> 
> (Worst case scenario, I'll have to change hosting to my own website, which would be an utter pain in the ass that would eat up writing time.)
> 
> In the meantime, if you'd still like to read the story, this will have to do for now:
> 
> [HTML](http://www.alexanderwales.com/WorththeCandle.html)  
> [PDF](http://www.alexanderwales.com/WorththeCandle.pdf)  
> [EPUB](http://www.alexanderwales.com/WorththeCandle.epub)  
> [MOBI](http://www.alexanderwales.com/WorththeCandle.mobi)  
> 
> These will not stay current, and will probably be taken down once the story is back up.

>> **u/Roxolan** [+65]  *Head of antimemetiWalmart senior assistant manager* (an hour later)
>> 
>> > I'll choose to believe that the anonymous report was from a Good Samaritan who wanted to ensure that Ao3 is able to achieve its objectives, rather than just someone who hated the story (or me personally) and was being vindictive.
>> 
>> It is reasonably likely that out of the entire Ao3 readership, someone bothered to set up a bot to listen for Patreon mentions.

>> **u/Omnibuser** [+27]  (57 minutes later)
>> 
>> Glad it's just bureaucratic silliness. My day gets significantly happier every time I see a new WtC chapter. This is the story that pushed HPMOR out of my top 3 web serials!

>>> **u/Fresh_C** [+9]  (5 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Out of curiosity, what are your other 2 favorites?

>>>> **u/Omnibuser** [+10]  (11 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Worm and Practical Guide to Evil.

>> **u/robobreasts** [+15]  (12 hours later)
>> 
>> hahahahahaha I didn't realize you were the author of Worth the Candle.  I've been reading it but not by being linked to from reddit I guess, and your Ao3 username is different.
>> 
>> I really enjoyed your Metropolitan Man and Last Christmas, and finding out you wrote Worth the Candle is really funny to me, it's like finding out that CS Lewis was a pseudonym of Tolkien for example instead of a different guy.
>> 
>> Not that I'm comparing you to those guys because, well, hey.  But still.  I'm quite tickled now.

>>> **u/None** [+14]  (15 hours later)
>>> 
>>> It was actually a secret here too for a while. If you go back through the chapter posts on the subreddit you can find the one where Wales revealed his secret identity and blew our collective minds.

>> **u/cfcommando** [+9]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> I run the site for Ward. I'd be happy to host you, if you like.

>> **u/eaglejarl** [+9]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> Thanks for letting us know. I'm starting a new project and had been intending to publish it on AO3, but now I will know better. 
>> 
>> To add my voice to the choir:  WTC is my favorite web serial at the moment, by a large margin. I look forward to the next chapter.

>> **u/rmangalurker** [+7]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> In case people wondering why [the skill name in the character stats in chapter one already has the blank filled](https://i.imgur.com/f1z6AoO.png), it's because the original has custom css to hide them (color it white). That's also the case for the PDF version (can't check EPUB or MOBI).

>> **u/CezarIXen** [+11]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> You can try royal road, it is site to hosting web novel, and not only allow patreon, but even encourage authors to use patreon by generating button to patreon in the end of chapter , and if creator allow this button is active with link to author patreon page. Royal road have good and big community , sensible interface and is free for authors and readers.

>>> **u/Themnos** [+23]  (3 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Royal Road has a nasty habit of redirecting their mobile website to spam sites though.

>>>> **u/None** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> [deleted]

>>>>> **u/loonyphoenix** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> You can fix this with some workarounds, but I feel like you should still stay clear of sites like that. Who knows what other shady shit the site will add in the future. I think that, just on principle, using sites like these should be a last resort.

>>> **u/israyum** [+2]  (3 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I second the Royal road suggestion, that site has a much better readability and comments system as well.

>>>> **u/Makin-** [+17]  *homestuck ratfic, you can do it* (4 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> I mean system, sure. Userbase... first five pages of comments tend to be people trying to get first or saying "thanks for the chapter" and nothing more.

>> **u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN** [+3]  (15 hours later)
>> 
>> /u/cthulhuraejepsen: Is the parent commenter (/u/alexanderwales) actually you, or just a filthy filthy imposter?

>>> **u/cthulhuraejepsen** [+8]  *Fruit flies like a banana* (18 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Both accounts belong to the same person, yes. [See here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/7x3ifv/rtwip_worth_the_candle_ch_76_date_night_start/du56bh2/)

>> **u/Green0Photon** [+2]  *Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar* (7 hours later)
>> 
>> Aww man, I hope that you don't have to remove it from AO3. That would be really annoying.
>> 
>> Is linking a Patreon really that bad? I wonder what you can even do about it. Can you say, "support me at my website," which has a link to you Patreon?
>> 
>> Definitely annoying, but I see why they don't commercial stuff on there. It could ruin their whole deal.

>>> **u/alexanderwales** [+26]  *Time flies like an arrow* (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> You can just say "visit my website" with a link, and then the website has a link to Patreon. I think that this case *isn't* bad, since it's Patreon for an original work, and there's debatably not a problem with intermixing of fan and commercial works ... but it's easier to have a blanket policy that everyone follows, rather than trying to judge on a case-by-case basis that inevitably results in bias, perception of bias, and blowback.
>>> 
>>> I'm fine not having a link, or just having a link to my website (since they explicitly allow that), and would have just done that if I'd known that I was supposed to. I *like* AO3, and the Organization for Transformative Works, and would only move the story if I was forced to.
>>> 
>>> (As far as monetization goes ...
>>> 
>>> Well, a little more than two years ago, I quit my job as a software engineer to be a stay-at-home dad to our son, who had just been born. It was something that my wife and I talked about a fair amount before we did it, and a decision that we made with the understanding that we'd be going from DINKs (Double-income, no kids) to living off just her salary. For the most part, we've made this work without it hurting too much, mostly because we were already living fairly frugally.
>>> 
>>> I try not to think about the intersection of money and writing all that much, because I worry about giving myself anxiety, but there's going to be a point, a few years from now, when my son starts going to school and I'm going to have to figure out what I'm going to do as far as rejoining the workforce goes. I'd *really* like to write full time, if I could justify it, but it's not clear whether I'll actually be able to justify it -- and that's what I think about, when I think about not linking to Patreon anymore.)
>>> 
>>> Apologies for the long and somewhat tangential response, I think I'm just in a talkative/contemplative mood.

>>>> **u/Green0Photon** [+9]  *Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar* (7 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> >You can just say "visit my website" with a link, and then the website has a link to Patreon. I think that this case *isn't* bad, since it's Patreon for an original work, and there's debatably not a problem with intermixing of fan and commercial works ... but it's easier to have a blanket policy that everyone follows, rather than trying to judge on a case-by-case basis that inevitably results in bias, perception of bias, and blowback.
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, that makes sense, and is technically a good idea for them if a bit annoying for you.
>>>> 
>>>> >I'm fine not having a link, or just having a link to my website (since they explicitly allow that), and would have just done that if I'd known that I was supposed to. I *like* AO3, and the Organization for Transformative Works, and would only move the story if I was forced to.
>>>> 
>>>> It's good that you're not *too* annoyed about it, though.
>>>> 
>>>> >Apologies for the long and somewhat tangential response, I think I'm just in a talkative/contemplative mood.
>>>> 
>>>> Naw, it's fine hearing about one of my favorite authors. :)
>>>> 
>>>> ---
>>>> 
>>>> Btw, I saw some people in this thread noting that other people complained about the DM showing up and just wanted to say:
>>>> 
>>>> I actually really liked how you did it. I didn't think of it as a ROB at all, and it felt really well done and well justified. Don't listen to the haters, your fic is going as strong as ever. Keep up the good work!

>>>> **u/Makin-** [+6]  *homestuck ratfic, you can do it* (14 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> I still say you should offer higher Patreon tiers. It doesn't even have to be really useful stuff, my server's patreon offers discord roles, user ads and custom channels and it still gains more income than WTC's with 25% of your patrons, which is a shame.
>>>> 
>>>> I definitely think you could swing at least $1000 a month with your current userbase if there wasn't only a $1/month tier. Someone a while ago gave you a better gameplan, something like a really low tier, another tier that you're hoping the average user aims for, and an expensive tier to make the average tier look cheap.
>>>> 
>>>> It just feels like a shame to me that the top royalroadl writers can live off their work and you can't.

>>>> **u/sicutumbo** [+2]  (9 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> You could potentially do freelance software development from home to supplement your wife's income. Stuff like web design, writing apps for mobile devices, etc. Things that can get you money and still allow you to work from home and not be tied to a business's schedule. It wouldn't be writing full time, but it also would allow you to set your own hours.

>> **u/CCC_037** [+2]  (17 hours later)
>> 
>> Well, AO3 seems to be handling this in a very reasonable manner. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you should always *read* the terms and conditions before you say you've read them!

>>> **u/Omnibuser** [+3]  (18 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Do you actually do that?

>>>> **u/CCC_037** [+2]  (18 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, and if I find something in there which I do not accept, then I won't accept it.
>>>> 
>>>> It's actually often quite an interesting read, if a bit dry.

>> **u/ToaKraka** [+1]  *https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> > (Worst case scenario, I'll have to change hosting to my own website, which would be an utter pain in the ass that would eat up writing time.)
>> 
>> It probably wouldn't be so irksome if your site were [plain and simple](https://www.nearlyfreespeech.net) rather than [hideously bloated with Javascript](https://wordpress.org).

>>> **u/alexanderwales** [+2]  *Time flies like an arrow* (3 hours later)
>>> 
>>> That has nothing to do with why it would be a pain in the ass; it's more the problem of uploading ~90 chapters and redoing the CSS that makes some of the special formatting work. The actual interface for posting and editing isn't much different between AO3 and Wordpress, and I've never found either troublesome to use.

>> **u/elevul** [+1]  *Cyoria Observer* (20 hours later)
>> 
>> Thank you for the .epub!

>> **u/None** [+1]  (21 hours later)
>> 
>> Why not just relocate off of Ao3 to some other hosting site?

>> **u/FatFingerHelperBot** [-9]  (47 minutes later)
>> 
>> It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users. 
>> I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click!
>> 
>> [Here is link number 1](http://www.alexanderwales.com/WorththeCandle.pdf) - Previous text "PDF"
>> 
>> ----
>> ^Please ^PM ^/u/eganwall ^with ^issues ^or ^feedback! ^| ^[Delete](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=FatFingerHelperBot&subject=delete&message=delete%20dxgv0pj)

>>> **u/AHaskins** [+3]  (an hour later)
>>> 
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>>> 
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> **u/None** [+29]  (13 minutes later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/Makin-** [+6]  *homestuck ratfic, you can do it* (23 minutes later)
>> 
>> Regarding the post being removed, it's still getting upvotes and I see it on the front page, so I don't think so?
>> 
>> Agree with you wholeheartedly on the rest.

>> **u/MaddoScientisto** [+3]  (25 minutes later)
>> 
>> I'm getting disappearing posts too but they are back so it's just a reddit glitch

>>> **u/Themnos** [+1]  (30 minutes later)
>>> 
>>> Think you're right.

>> **u/Kilbourne** [+2]  (26 minutes later)
>> 
>> > edit: this self post seems to have been removed. 
>> 
>> I still see it from multiple accesses.

>> **u/sparr** [+1]  (55 minutes later)
>> 
>> > People don't get a notification from text posts, AFAIK.
>> 
>> What does this mean?

>>> **u/Themnos** [+2]  (an hour later)
>>> 
>>> Linking to someone's name (/u/sparr) in a comment will usually send them an inbox notification. But, last I checked, if you /u/ someone's name in a self-post they don't get a notification.

> **u/lfghikl** [+25]  (37 minutes later)
> 
> Logging in for the first time in ~2 years to say that I love your story /u/alexanderwales. Please don't stop writing it.

> **u/None** [+16]  (28 minutes later)
> 
> Just to add my voice to the chorus: I *really* enjoy Worth the Candle, and the prospect of losing it like this makes me extremely anxious. Just another sign of it being extremely good, I suppose :)

> **u/Killako1** [+8]  (6 minutes later)
> 
> Can confirm

> **u/MaddoScientisto** [+8]  (13 minutes later)
> 
> He mentioned in the patreon monthly report that the negative feedback after the introduction of the ROB demotivated him greatly and the long time between updates after that and now this...
> I'm sad, I really enjoyed the story

>> **u/Makin-** [+10]  *homestuck ratfic, you can do it* (20 minutes later)
>> 
>> I doubt he'd take the entire story down just because of negative feedback, and it has mostly tapered off since that chapter (at least the actual constructive feedback if you know who I mean). 
>> In any case, I don't think you can consistently make it to the top of /r/rational with a significantly flawed story. 
>> 
>> I also enjoyed the story and hope this is all just a glitch.

>>> **u/sicutumbo** [+3]  (45 minutes later)
>>> 
>>> That's my thinking as well. If he had truly decided to stop updating the story, we would be told through a text post on this sub or his personal site, and he wouldn't take the archive of the story down.
>>> 
>>> Plus, the timing doesn't make much sense. A few days after he posts two chapters that largely got good feedback? If someone was so dissatisfied with their work that they felt the need to delete it, I would expect it to be after a significant hiatus.

>>>> **u/MaddoScientisto** [+2]  (an hour later)
>>>> 
>>>> Nevermind it was just ao3 being ao3

>> **u/Trudar** [+5]  (4 hours later)
>> 
>> That's stupid, since the main aim of main protagonist is to be one. It has been in his quests, to met the gods, so *sooner or later it had to happen*. No one ever suggested, that it has to be in-universe.
>> 
>> I think it's cool the way it was done, and crew's reaction was over the top.

>>> **u/UPBOAT_FORTRESS_2** [+4]  (6 hours later)
>>> 
>>> The characters framed everything in terms of "how do we please the unseen puppetmaster?", and even justifiably within the story. But I think that's a narrative dead-end, unless he gives us a sign.
>>> 
>>> IMO, the DM character doesn't exhibit even as much power as is implied by all the speculation of our protagonists. Much better to have the DM write himself out of the story than leave him hovering in the background.

>> **u/narfanator** [+3]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> ROB?

>>> **u/Friedoobrain** [+3]  (an hour later)
>>> 
>>> Random omnipotent being/bastard. A catch all term for the gods and sundry that like to throw ordinary people into other universes in a lot of fics/fanfics.

>>>> **u/nytelios** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> I wouldn't call the DM an ROB, if only because he's not random. There feels like a purpose to his presence. 
>>>> 
>>>> I've never made the connection before, but Dungeon Masters are surely of the same mold as ROBs, being omnipotent beings/bastards and all.

>> **u/Nimelennar** [+1]  (7 hours later)
>> 
>> I didn't mind the ROB so much as that one part where (all of this is paraphrased) Joon says, "I wish to not have a harem," and the DM replies, "Well, you can always mind-rape your companions and remove their attraction to you.  And, since I've given you that idea on how to accomplish it, I'll count that as a wish granted."
>> 
>> And, you know, I could even let that slide, except there is *no push-back* from Joon on that.  At all.  He just moves on to his next question.
>> 
>> I almost stopped reading at that point.  It horrified me.  It disturbed me.  And yes, in the very next chapter, Joon pledged not to make any soul modifications without the person's consent, which alleviated some of that horror.  But still, that one paragraph colours my perception of the entire story, and not in a positive way.
>> 
>> ...And, having written all of that, I went back and read that paragraph, thinking that I might have oversold it, but no.  It's actually worse than I remembered.

>>> **u/sparkc** [+3]  (10 hours later)
>>> 
>>> To clarify: is your position that, based on that scene, you felt Joon considered the ROB’s solution to his problem as something worth considering?

>>>> **u/Nimelennar** [+1]  (23 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Short answer is: by not pushing back against "I've told you how to do it; I'll count that as your wish having been granted," Joon's accepting the answer given as a plausible solution to the problem.
>>>> I can't speak to what the character considered because the story doesn't speak to what the character considered.  But Joon accepted that the wish had been granted, which says something, and not something good.

>>>>> **u/sparkc** [+5]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> It seems like one of the key issues for you is the fact that Joon is not explicitly reacting to the DM’s suggestion. I think you would have to read that scene in a vacuum without the context of the story to come to your conclusion and based on your responses that does seem like what you’re doing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Has Joon been characterised in any way as the sort of character who would consider ‘mind-raping’ ethical or moral? Joon has repeatedly shown to care about whether his companions have free will via the loyalty mechanic, has worried about their continued existence when he is absent and has worried that their mental make up was inorganically designed by the DM. He has shown himself unwilling to glance at amaryllis’ naked form through the soul link and has been unwilling to peer at his companions personality through the soul link unless it is of the utmost necessity. He also has numerous explicit negative reactions to the way Fallatehr uses soul magic to mind rape his companions. If you take all of this context yet come to the conclusion that a non reaction is evidence enough to heavily discount all of the above, well, we weigh evidence differently then.
>>>>> I think it’s important if you have a particularly strong negative reaction to a story that doesn’t seem to have been experienced by other readers (some readers had issues with the ROB scene but they appear to be more regarding the overarching plot or a lack of munchkining) to consider the possibility that you are reading something into the story that wasn’t intended.

>>>>>> **u/Nimelennar** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm not trying to say it was intended.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've read a lot of fiction and fan fiction, and one mistake that I see often is that people write dialogue as if they're just transcribing what each person says, and leave out the important part, which is how a character reacts to what is being said.  I don't care that Alice is telling Bob that Carol is having an affair with Dave, I want to see how Bob *reacts* to that information.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Now, normally, in WtC, the author has been decent about writing that kind of thing, but in this particular case, there was something that *absolutely needed* to be reacted to.  And the lack of a reaction to an idea that noxious, when the character *has* reacted to lesser offences (compare, in the next chapter, how he reacts to the existence of embryo-souls), conveys its own message by its absence.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Again, I'm not saying that message is there intentionally.  It's probably that same mistake I see over and over again, in presuming that *what is said* is more important than the *reaction* to what is said.  When I read that paragraph, I fully expected Joon, based on the character that he was shown to be, to jump down the DM's throat for even suggesting such a thing, for even suggesting that Joon would *do* such a thing.  And then, when it cost him a wish, I again expected *some* sort of protest.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Trust me, if it had seemed *in*-character for Joon to be okay with that sort of thing, I would have stopped reading a long time sooner.  The lack of reaction sent a message that I was so thoroughly not okay with, and caused me to re-evaluate the character.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Even unintended, the message is there, conveyed by the absence of a reaction to a truly foul suggestion.  And, even unintended, that message is going to colour how I think about the rest of the story.

>>>>>>> **u/sparkc** [+5]  (a day later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Am I right in saying that a) you agree Joon is not okay with or the sort of person to endorse mind rape, b) AW was not trying to put forward the message that mind rape is okay, c) you felt the scene unintentionally puts that idea forward, due to a writing mistake, and yet, d) this is going to effect your perception of the entirety of the rest of the story?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Even though I don’t agree with c) I can understand your point. d) is hard for me to wrap my head around. Is the timeline in your head for the story that Joon is a reasonably moral and ethical character that had an in universe moment whereby he was for the space of a conversation okay with mind rape before going back to being a character with reasonable morals and ethics? 
>>>>>>> Reading stories whereby you understand the authors intention but think they failed to translate it well and then forever after read the story with that mistranslation warping your perception of the story just seems...like a good way to not enjoy reading honestly.

>>>>> **u/valeskas** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> My read is that DM tells Junpier that editing companions via administrative access to prevent harem possibility is not that different from soul magic mind-rape. Since Juniper was reckless enough to ask that sort of thing and wish is technically granted, he is penalized with one wish.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Later Juniper explained why he did not attempt optimizing the wishes.

>>> **u/Jarwain** [+2]  (20 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I guess I'm not sure how he'd push back on it. Sure, he could say that it's wrong or immoral or unethical, and that'd be true. Joon recognizes that. What exactly would pushing back solve? He gets an alternative answer to the throwaway wish to not have a harem? Either way, he loses the wish. Any other answer probably wouldn't be much better than That. It's a wish granted. A waste of a wish, sure, but Joon dug that hole for himself. He's not going to forcibly remove their attraction because he doesn't need to since he's not going to try and build a harem.

>>>> **u/Nimelennar** [+1]  (23 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> >Sure, he could say that it's wrong or immoral or unethical, and that'd be true. Joon recognizes that.
>>>> 
>>>> Where?  Where does the story say that he recognizes that?  Really, just having that recognition in the story would put my mind at ease.  As it stands, there is absolutely no reaction *whatsoever* from Joon to that suggestion, even internally.
>>>> 
>>>> >What exactly would pushing back solve? 
>>>> 
>>>> The DM stated that the wish had been granted based on Joon having been given a way to accomplish his desire himself.   He could push for that wish back, since the solution given is something the DM knows he'd never actually do.
>>>> 
>>>> Even if he can't get the wish back, he could use the wish as worded to push for his *future* companions (if there's seven, that's still two he hasn't met) to be heterosexual men, so that he's neither attracted to, nor *attractive* to, them.  A party of three men, four women, and a dwarf could hardly be said to be a "harem" (and it provides the women in the party who aren't Finn a chance to express romantic interest in someone other than Joon).
>>>> 
>>>> And even if the DM refuses to budge at all, at least then there's *some* sort of reaction to that horrific idea.

>>>>> **u/nytelios** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> >  “Whatever you want, do it,” said Fenn. She stared at me, glancing briefly down at my lips. “My soul is yours.”
>>>>> > 
>>>>> > “No,” I said. “That’s creepy, your soul is your own.” 
>>>>> 
>>>>> There are other instances where Joon expresses horror at the idea of mind-raping people. But judging people by a lack of reaction doesn't tell us that he's a horrible person, but rather that you yourself are very sensitive to morality. Trying to put myself in that situation, I wouldn't have had a reaction either, because 1) editing values and mind-rape through soul magic isn't exactly news, 2) I would be trying to analyze every word the DM says because he just revealed a hint™ and 3) it's not like someone else making a suggestion to commit a heinous act means I have to do it or even react to it. I think Joon clearly has a code of ethics (e.g. thinking about how it's wrong to kill the tuung guards and vaguely following through), but he's not particularly zealous in following it because he's also a bit of a utilitarian neutral (e.g. committing to the plan and killing all the named tuung vanguard on the ship).
>>>>> 
>>>>> You raised up something fun though! It's interesting how the first-person voice has an effect on what we notice and what bothers us. It highlights any dissonance between how Joon reacts and how we would react, especially if you get engaged in reading. God knows I get this itch whenever Joon acts in a way that feels foreign to my own envisioned response.
>>>>> 
>>>>> About the harem, the latent homosexual feelings for Arthur theory was thrown around, so as long as the new male companions like Joon romantically, the harem potential is there.

> **u/Omnibuser** [+4]  (7 minutes later)
> 
> Oh heck

> **u/ben_sphynx** [+3]  (37 minutes later)
> 
> I was really enjoying it, having started reading two weekends go. I think I had got to around 82 or 83, and was starting to worry that I was nearly caught up.

> **u/munkeegutz** [+3]  (50 minutes later)
> 
> I'm sure it's a bug/mistake.  In the meantime, I ripped the raw text for ch1-87 when I was making that list of magic types.  Said text can be found here [1] for the truly desperate ;-)
> 
> The story and world-building of Worth the Candle is absolutely staggering!  Don't let a vocal minority get you down!
> 
> [1] ~~https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxlzhodz4trvfs0/worth_the_candle_1_87.txt?dl=0~~ (see the author's post)

>> **u/htmlcoderexe** [+1]  (21 hours later)
>> 
>> FYI Reddit markdown works slightly differently, you make links by \[link text](http(s)://whatever).

> **u/Gilgilad7** [+3]  *House Atreides* (10 days later)
> 
> I got fairly busy in real life and stopped reading since chapter 53 with plans to get caught back up at a later day. Since I had some free days this week I binged read back up to the current chapter and must say that the story has continued to be excellent and I love the direction it is going. I love binge reading to get caught up when I get behind since it is so satisfying to have 35 chapters to read all at once. :)   
> 
> This story continues to be my number 1 recommendation to readers in the litRPG subreddit for good reasons. :)

> **u/Unwit_** [+2]  (40 minutes later)
> 
> Glad I grabbed it offline before now, I was really looking forward to reading it on my commute

> **u/Flashbunny** [+2]  (6 hours later)
> 
> Worth the Candle is my favourite currently updating story on AO3. Probably my favourite including completed stories too, but it's possible I've forgotten something truly spectacular. In any case, I'm glad to hear it's a temporary removal, not an abandonment.

> **u/everything-narrative** [+1]  *Coral, Abide with Rubicon!* (an hour later)
> 
> I wonder if sending readers on a google based puzzle hunt for your Patreon is ok?

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