scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/8ygrpw.md

## [RT][HF] A Practical Guide to Evil: Book 4: Chapter 30: Witness

* Author: u/Zayits *
* URL: https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/07/13/chapter-30-witness/
* Score: 85

* Created: 2018-07-13T04:04:22

### Post:

[Link to content](https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/07/13/chapter-30-witness/)

### Comments:

> **u/cyberdsaiyan** [+19]  (54 minutes later)
> 
> Oh my god, so many revelations!
> 
> * The Garden... most likely the first version of Creation where everyone was immortal. And apparently that didn't satisfy the gods, and they feared that someone with unlimited time might learn things they shouldn't which means...
> * ...the Gods aren't omnipotent. They are beatable. This sets them up firmly as the ultimate antagonists. Catherine must either make them understand the inherent duality of people with words or actions. So much foreshadowing!
> * The "Evil" side is forced to fight in everywhere and everything, leading to several Dread Emperors and Empresses who couldn't abide by *any* Peace agreement, making any kind of negotiation excrutiatingly difficult for both Malicia and Catherine.
> * The Dead King was crafted by the Gods. Which side? Hard to say. And there are hints that there are more of his "kind". Is Ranger the same?
> * Bard is... an unwilling actor? Someone who does this to make herself "better" for an eventual break up with the Gods? Is the Wandering fucking Bard turning into a potential ally?
> 
> And now Catherine knows all of this. Did the Dead King predict this would happen? He knows she is of Winter, and would use Arcadia to shorten the journey to Keter. And he knows that there are reflections of Creation in arcadia... and probably considered that she had Hierophant with him... Was this the purpose of the invitation all along?
> 
> Such an amazing chapter!

>> **u/serge_cell** [+19]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Garden is Arcadia

>>> **u/cyberdsaiyan** [+1]  (4 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Ah, can't believe I missed that connection.

>> **u/Zayits** [+12]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> > The Dead King was crafted by the Gods. Which side? Hard to say.
>> 
>> Not particularly:
>> 
>> > “Below has already blessed you quite enough, my friend,” the Bard shrugged.
>> 
>> Also, on the subject of Bard's allegiance - keep in mind that this is the Intercessor, the vaguely priestly "prototype" of the same Name. "Wandering Bard" has no religious connotations, and the transition from the former to the latter is foreshadowed by this explanation:
>> 
>> > I seek knowledge. About how they make people like you. I won’t solve the riddle with the tools they gave me, so it seems I must learn craftsmanship of my own.
>> 
>> I suspect she used her immortality to shape the Role into one relying on meta-knowledge instead of intervening on the behalf of Gods, though if Hierarch is any indication, she still occasionally does that. I wonder what exactly was the desire the Tyrant saw in the core of her.

>>> **u/cyberdsaiyan** [+2]  (9 hours later)
>>> 
>>> "So I seek knowledge. About how they make people like you."
>>> 
>>> ... seems to suggest the hand of some God in his creation.
>>> 
>>> ... or it could also be a broad question in the tune of "how do villains work?".

>>>> **u/Zayits** [+10]  (9 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> She stated that she considered the Gods Below his Gods, which, together with the idea that one must listen to the teaching of Gods to become better, suggest that she considers herself Good. The Wandering Bard as we know her would understand the motives of a villain pretty easily, but this isn't a Bard yet. She seems to understand people with inherently different philosofies less, and so needs to understand how one comes to Dead King's conclusion of "living doesn't really matter". Of course, since she's Good-aligned, from her perspective he's an instrument for Below, and his success and odd outlook mean he must have been crafted for a specific purpose.
>>>> 
>>>> I suspect that in reality Gods Below care far less about who gets a Name and what they do with it, choosing to emphasize personal traits of the character instead of an underlying uniform code. The current situation is a mystery only for the Intercessor; from the Dead King's perspective everything that has been happening so far makes perfect sense. He hasn't been "made", he just happened to be the kind of person to bite off the exact amount he could chew.
>>>> 
>>>> Note the absence of her usual references to the meta-knowedge: the shift from a priestly Role to a narratively focused one must have been accompanied by a shift from looking at Creation through theological/phylosophycal lens to a perspective of a Named reading the script.

>>>>> **u/cyberdsaiyan** [+2]  (11 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ah, I guess I'm just having a hard time reconciling the Bard that we know and this... ancient version of her.

>> **u/notagiantdolphin** [+8]  (14 hours later)
>> 
>> >Gods as the ultimate antagonists
>> 
>> We all know how this will go. Catherine will cover them in goblinfire and be confused when it doesn't work. Then she'll apply more goblinfire until it does. There may be goblins launched out of makeshift cannons.

>>> **u/serge_cell** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> >Then she'll apply more goblinfire until it does.
>>> 
>>> Seems goblinfire produced from demon blood.  Next step would be use demon blood for isotope separation. [Demon core](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core)  - exactly the thing goblins would absolutely love. Let see how Gods woudl like 100 millions of Kelvin under their feet. Cross the path of the Gods, Brighter than thousand suns.

>> **u/None** [+7]  (8 hours later)
>> 
>> If Cat make the Gods Above and Below understand the "inherent duality of people" Creation might go the way of Masego's childhood sanctuary. Vanished into non-existence after it has served it's purpose. While I wouldn't put it past Cat to do the impossible the Gods are so much smarter, stronger and unaffected by Fate that her chances of beating or tricking them are close to none. Maybe she'll strike a balance between the two sides or fuck off to Arcadia with Callow.

>>> **u/cyberdsaiyan** [+2]  (9 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Yeah, it's hard to see the endgame in this vast conflict since it has been going on for possibly more than a millenium.

> **u/None** [+18]  (2 hours later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/Taborask** [+8]  (15 hours later)
>> 
>> also Sephira and Keter being levels of Kabbalah raises a lot of questions. although I suppose we could just take it to be an "ascention" as it were from one to the other. Moving up the chain of divine energy makes sense

> **u/signspace13** [+18]  (2 hours later)
> 
> Well that was... Enlightening, the conversation wasn't long, but the Bard and the king certainly knew a lot. 
> 
> The garden of immortals is almost certainly Arcadia, the fae and whatever other immortals it contains are too perfect a description of 'having fallen into closed circles'. And it seems that mortals were created, at least from the dead king's perspective, as a being that could not challenge the power of the gods. The Dead king seems to disagree saying that 'the Splendid' (another great descriptor for the Fae) are bound because if they were not then they might learn more than they should with their passage through eternity, this makes Cat's position as both mortal and Fae rather interesting.
> 
> The Bard gives me more evidence for my theory of the gods above being those who seek Rule, **“They make us better, when we listen,”** seems like Heroes only get stronger if they obey.
> 
> While the Dead king seems to believe that northern side is meant to win as both are designed to die, because if they don't then they could once again risk learning things that may threaten their creators.

>> **u/None** [+8]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> > “They make us better, when we listen,” the Bard said. “Even yours. It is a terrible thing you will do, but no less great for it.”
>> 
>> Not just heroes, all named. At least, that's what Bard thinks. We know this on some level, WRT Black's powers being stronger when he obeys his aspects.
>> 
>> Although, I think it has more to do with obeying **the stories** than particular precepts of Above and Below.

> **u/UserAns22** [+28]  (30 minutes later)
> 
> Interesting to see the new perspective on immortals.  I'm assuming that Arcadia was the garden mentioned?
> Also wondering what Cat meant by a different kind of war.  The actions of the dead king make her hate him too thoroughly to compromise seem unlikely, but him being the O.G. chessmaster probably freaked her more than a little bit.

>> **u/CeruleanTresses** [+17]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> Arcadia as the Garden would certainly fit with the Bard's comment that "immortals always fall into closed circles."
>> 
>> I wonder what answers the Gods hope to obtain from mortals.

>>> **u/Rheklr** [+13]  (an hour later)
>>> 
>>> I think the gods wanted to play games, but their first try had immortals because they didn't even consider it a possibility until later.

>>>> **u/middleofnight** [+5]  (4 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Good way of putting it. BTW by 'play games' you mean the 'settle the bet', right?

>>>>> **u/LordSwedish** [+7]  *Q Continuum* (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Once you settle a bet by empowering people and budgeting them along to stories, you're playing a game.

>> **u/cyberdsaiyan** [+11]  (4 hours later)
>> 
>> I think Cat had always thought that with the Liesse accords and her plans in place, Callow would have peace. But now she knows there's a greater enemy that won't just let the status quo change on a whim.

>>> **u/None** [+13]  (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Cat's only been trying to win on the mundane and named battlefield so far but she has barely considered the divine one where neither of the two sides share her goals. Maybe she'll have to play both sides on a meta-meta level to get the kind of peace she wants. Maybe she'll try to leverage her Arcadian influence and distance herself and her followers from the argument entirely. But now she can't pretend that just "making peace" will be tenable for long.

>>>> **u/cyberdsaiyan** [+2]  (9 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> hence the preparation for a different kind of war.

>> **u/momanie** [+5]  (48 minutes later)
>> 
>> I'm thinking maybe the elves as the garden or possibly even the angels and demons.

> **u/haiku_fornification** [+12]  (3 hours later)
> 
> > “They make us better, when we listen,” the Bard said. “Even yours. It is a terrible thing you will do, but no less great for it.”
> > 
> > “Yet you seek to escape your purpose,” the man said.
> > 
> > “I have,” she said lightly, “always loved a good story.”
> > 
> > “What a clever jest,” Neshamah mused. “That there are none to seek intercession for the Intercessor.”
> 
> So it seems like the Bard is compelled to maintain the balance between Good and Evil, even if it's against her will. Not a smart move on the part of the Gods - just consider the kind of narrative this creates.
> 
> You can easily frame the story with the mortal races being the Heroes and the Gods being the Villains. The Hierarch has explicitly stated his opposition against Gods and mortals even have the whole underdog thing going on for them. And what would that make the Bard? Well, there's three things to watch out for when assaulting a villain.
> 
> > The first was the monster. It wasn’t always a greater devil or a demon, though admittedly that was the traditional Wasteland playbook. Some entity, usually difficult to handle, would be leashed somewhere in the lair to be used as a way to beat down an enemy too powerful for the villain themselves to handle.

>> **u/Zayits** [+11]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> I think she fits another role better:
>> 
>> > The second was the trial, because there was more to killing a villain than just running them through. There was always a cost, a crucible you had to go through to earn that kill. The peasant boy that ended up slaying the dragon didn’t just pick up the magic sword in a rubbish heap, he had to bleed first. What made a hero a hero wasn’t the fancy weapon or the birth right, it was the courage. Or whatever other trite and actually fairly common quality they’d had in them all along. The shade that had once owned the sword would force a test, or the devil guarding the phylactery whisper some sweet temptation.

> **u/FormerlySarsaparilla** [+6]  (15 hours later)
> 
> People are interpreting this without making use of the quote at the top of the page. Putting it in that light it is pretty simple, and just clarifies a number of things we already understood.
> 
> The gods of Creation are trying to win their eternal game of Above v Below. The first attempt was Arcadia, which failed because the immortals were too restricted in their actions despite being empowered. The second attempt is the current world, where mortals have the potential to surprise the gods, with death being the ultimate check on their power. "Same box in the end," eh?
> 
> The Dead King sought to escape the box this by eliminating death altogether- in one form or another he accomplished that for himself, but maybe not for his kingdom. Interestingly the *bard* also seems to have accomplished it, possibly by becoming the Ref or something for the Gods, working both sides to eliminate people who might rise beyond the great game? She is certainly convinced that he couldn't have reached his power without outside assistance. He, in turn, wonders who it is that speaks on her behalf.
> 
> And something about Cat has caught the attention of both of them, at this point. Whoo boy. It seems like it might not just be narrative shenanigans after all that she doesn't hardly have a Name anymore...

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