8.9 KiB
In The Balance | Slate Star Codex
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Author: u/raymestalez *
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Score: 72
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Created: 2018-09-12T14:44:09
Post:
Comments:
u/somerandomguy2008 [+19] (4 hours later)
But wait! "What's that?" you will say. And there will appear a vision of ''̡'̸'͟'҉'̸'''''̶'̸''̸''''̡'͟''̕''͡'̧'''͢'̀', Archangel of the Domain of '͡''̵'̸'͡'̴'҉''̧'', who doesn't appear in a physical form at all, but whose voice resounds in your head with such a strength that it feels like it should still qualify as a vision. '̷''̨''͟'͡''͡'̧'͝'̴ will invite you to consider the possibility that an artifact that causes this many demons to suddenly appear with a bunch of conflicting advice is an artifact you shouldn't use at all. '̷''̨''͟'͡''͡'̧'͝'̴ will ask you to step away from the artifact and to reseal the chamber you came through on your way out.
u/Alphanos [+11] The Bright Powers (5 hours later)
Additionally, supposing that one determined that the Artifact should be used at all, it seems likely that the demons are presenting a false dichotomy. All of this confusion about order, chaos, balance, excess, etc, seems intended to distract from the thought that perhaps the Artifact could be used along different axes of choice, rather than following demonic guidance. For one thing, it may be worth considering whether to get rid of all of the demons.
u/crivtox [+6] Closed Time Loop Enthusiast (20 hours later)
And then appears the arcangel noitilov the domain of munckinism and rationality that says that you shouldn't take decisions that you don't know the consequences of, nor pass the opportunity to fix the world , and just say that you choose whatever maximices your cev.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+10] Dai-Gurren Brigade (22 hours later)
To which the artefact answers "I'm not your fucking utility function calculator!" and crashes itself on the floor, indignant.
u/eroticas [+16] (7 hours later)
I'm firmly on team MLOXO7W. We are trying to straightforwardly maximize a third variable (let's call it "good") and we want "order" and "chaos" in the exact amount of "balance" that maximize it.
I am also on team PAHANUP.
PAHANUP suggest that there is a correct level of meta here (not a random level of meta like GOSAGUL says) and additionally, appears in a hole in space exactly three inches deep, suggesting that the third level of meta, MLOXO7W, is the correct one. (ZAMABAMAZ, IYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, and MLOXO7W represent the first, second, and third level of meta)
you refused to take more than about three minutes figuring out what to use it for, because that would have been annoying.
But, more pointedly, because IFNI told you that it could take an arbitrarily large amount of time to correctly calculate the number of meta levels, which is true, but misled our protagonist into assuming it would take an eternity... when in actual fact the arbitrarily large amount of time in this case happens to be "three minutes".
Of course, a-priori, there is no way you could have known it would take three minutes. It's easy to say "why not just spend three minutes on that" in hindsight, but the amount of time you choose to invest in trying to find a solution for a given amount of time is determined by the maximum value of the expected likelihood of finding it in a given time times the value of the solution minus the value of the time....and should you have calculated that value before choosing to begin? And if so how long would that take you?
u/696e6372656469626c65 [+1] I think, therefore I am pretentious. (13 hours later)
Very good, but you missed this bit of supporting evidence:
But as you reach for the coin, you will see a vision of GOSAGUL, Demon-Admiral of the Domain of Ordered Meta-Balanced Excess, who appears as a cube with constantly flashing black and white faces. He will lecture you on how it seems pretty strange that, when faced with the most important decision in the history of the universe, you decide to flip a coin. Surely, even if Ifni’s argument is correct, you can do better than that! For example, you can just go a specific finite number of levels, such as three, then seek balance at that many levels, then stop.
u/eroticas [+1] (14 hours later)
So I did see that but I didn't want to use it because...
the problem was that by the logic of the story, it seems to me that we should have one unreasonable demon arguing for spending zero time thinking about which level of meta and picking at random, one unreasonable demon arguing for spending forever calculating the level of meta, one reasonable demon suggesting that we spend the balanced and correct amount of time determining how long we should spend calculating the level of meta, and only then should MEGAHAHA have come in claiming that we should either spend no time, or infinite time.
Scott didn't write it that way. It bothered me that he didn't because it broke symmetry. IFNI and GOSAGUL should be combined into one, really. GOSAGUL doesn't even disagree with IFNI, just improves upon her methods.
Anyway, for the symmetry to work, <GOSAGUL+IFNI>, who represent extremity, should have suggested an arbitrary level of meta rather than three in particular. Whereas MLOXO7W was arguing not for an arbitrary level, but for a specific level.
u/None [+13] (6 hours later)
[deleted]
u/CopperZirconium [+4] (8 hours later)
I feel like the Lord of Dark would have a pre-commited strategy to use if he ever finds himself in this situation.
u/crivtox [+2] Closed Time Loop Enthusiast (20 hours later)
More like a prequel , and that's where the balance stuff comes from .
u/abcd_z [+8] (16 hours later)
I got a few iterations in before I decided to start looking for a third option, orthogonal to the chaos-balance axis. I suspected the entire thing was a false dichotomy. And what do you know? I was right.
u/Roneitis [+5] (18 hours later)
AN: Alright, this is gonna suck, so I'm going to implement some notation. Balance (X || Y) refers to some sort of a balancing point between X & Y, and Excess(X||Y) refers to either X or Y.
What exactly does second-order balance imply? Is it A: varying where the Balance(order || chaos) should lie? Or B: balancing(having a balance of order and chaos || having just one of order and chaos).
I could see A maybe being already implicit in first order balancing. Does balancing refer to [I]: finding an exact middle, or [II]: weighing one up and the other down to find some sort of an optimum for the exact scenario.
[II] would seem to imply to /me/ that B is actually a subset of A, with the cases of first order excess (or Excess(Order || Chaos)) really just being cases where the balance point (which could be considered a real number between 0 and 1) just lies at one extreme end: 0 or 1 (or if you really care, 0.9999999998, which is functionally identical).
[I] however, seems to justify the necessity of any higher order levels of balancing, with each level of meta increasing the total number of cases and levels of granularity WRT possible cases on the level of order and chaos by a factor of two. However, this would means that Balance(Order || Chaos) = 0.5, Excess(Order || Chaos) = 1 or 0 and, this is where I start to break down: Balance(Balance(Order || Chaos) || Excess (Order||Chaos)) = 0.75 or 0.25.
Fuck me I'm a little bit in knots aren't I?
u/Sparkwitch [+4] (3 hours later)
I'm on team K!!!111ELEVEN, but I've also stated that if given mastery of the universe - and knowing how fiddly and unlikely basic physics are - I'd accidentally destroy everything. Almost immediately.
So this is a bad artifact and second-person protagonist should feel bad for thinking you ought to it up in the first place.
u/Solonarv [+2] Chaos Legion (14 hours later)
Accidentally destroying the universe because you don't know what you're doing sure doesn't sound like "mastery" to me.
In any fictional scenario, this can be handwaved away by stating that the artifact also imbues you with sufficient knowledge on how to use it.
u/Sparkwitch [+5] (21 hours later)
Yes, but in this fictional scenario the artifact is FULL OF DEMONS.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+3] Dai-Gurren Brigade (19 hours later)
All I see is a transcript of your average Twitter thread about politics.
u/crivtox [+5] Closed Time Loop Enthusiast (20 hours later)
I doubt the average twitter thread even reaches more than one level of meta .
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+4] Dai-Gurren Brigade (22 hours later)
True, they usually just repeat the same first order arguments back and forth over and over again.